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  1. #4051
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Tani Shirai
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    Cactuar
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    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure View Post
    snip
    I gotta admit... I'm not sure I want... much of any of this.

    You can convert Salt and Darkness into GCD spell that combos after Stalwart Soul and move it to level that Salted Earth is and it would make AoE feel slightly better, though could make Stalwart Soul and Salt and Darkness restore MP, Blood gauge, and restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit.
    I do not want a three-step AoE combo. Stalwart Soul also already gives resources. And unless you want your AoEs to suck in 2-4 targets, you probably do not want your AoE's resource generation to scale with target count without limitations.

    You could bring back Dark Passenger, make it GCD that costs MP, and have it combo into Flood of Darkness/Shadow, which then combos into Shadowbringer, and they all cost 3000 MP, because the MP guzzling aspect of Dark Knight is enough to make it stand out from the other tanks, just the MP spenders were GCDs
    I'm honestly not sure what you mean by "combos" into, or whether they cost 3k each or in total (combo nullifies the follow-ups' costs). I don't think I like either one, though. On the one hand you end up with Double Down + Gnashing Fang's inflexibility, requiring that you have 9k MP saved up before each Shadowbringer, with the only benefit(?) being (I guess?) that you'd be forced to spread your Shadowbringers out some. On the other hand, you end up with... well, still bundling those skills completely in order not to waste 2 Edge's worth of MP.

    Heck you could make Blood Weapon be a mini Darkside that grants 15-25% haste which then becomes Darkside when you do the quest to unlock it, and then have Darkside become Living Shadow with the dark flames aura that also boosts potency by 100-300, and we can keep the ways to maintain Darkside and have those apply to Blood Weapon and Living Shadow.
    Likewise not sure what this means. "Darkside" as a 15-25% buff? And that becomes permanent after unlocking the 'real' Darkside? And then that replaces Living Shadow, too?

    I feel like this could be decent, but I truly cannot tell from the way it's described. I'm not opposed to a HW Blood of the Dragon-esque mechanic (but with speed and spenders instead of +50% damage to a category of oGCDs + spenders), but I'd need more info on what exactly it is you want this to do, gameplay-wise.

    Edge of Darkness/Shadow you could make it become a GCD weaponskill that cost 20 Blood gauge, that combos into Bloodspiller that costs 15 Blood Gauge, that combos into Carve and Spit that also cost 15 Blood gauge, and they could restore MP and restore HP equal to damage dealt, and you could also make these share 1 button.
    Why are we trying to make the job that always had comparatively high oGCD attack usage... lose most of its oGCDs?

    I haven't seen many complaints about DRK having too many oGCD casts on the whole, only that they're too concentrated (that, per 120s, you burst them all within 15s and are then left bored for the remaining 105s).

    Similarly, what is the point in so greatly reducing Blood costs but then delaying your oGCDs attacks behind them? I don't think it'd necessarily be a bad idea, but... I don't see any obvious merit, either, and of the two I'd tend towards not muddying them in that way probably being the better option.

    You could make Quietus cost 15 Blood gauge and have restore MP, and make Abyssal Drain a GCD that cost 3000 MP that restore Blood gauge, make both restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit, and people would would try to find a use for these.
    Unless by "restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit" you mean specifically that they just have a cure potency equal to their attack potency and/or use the highest individual instance of damage among all hits done in that cast as their healing value... the use case is going to still be very simple. You'd use it in AoE. Outside of AoE, you would not use it.

    Dark Arts button we can bring back as 60 second cooldown which grants 3 Dark Arts charges, which double the potency of all actions, ignore resources for 3 actions and if used on Dark Passenger, Flood of Darkness/Shadow, and/or Shadowbringer it converts Dark Arts into a new resource called Blood Arts which is basically triples damage dealt for Blood gauge spenders, but only in combat
    That... seems simply to be a slightly more convoluted version of the current Delirium. What's the objective of this change?

    The Blackest Night have the MP cost removed, but would need it's recast timer increased to 25 seconds, and if falls off 1 Dark Arts charge, if it breaks it grants 3 instead.
    This would damn near force you to use it on CD, as it'd grant your 60s offensive CD every 25s so long as you pop it. Such would likely be vastly less now that you've made them GCDs, but still, no other on-demand directly grants damage in that way.

    You could bring back 4.3 Sole Survivor, buff it to where it increase damage dealt to enemies by 5% and reduce the amount of damage that those enemies would deal by 10%, have it be 2 charges, and it would give Dark Knight a raid buff that's good against bosses and also good in dungeons.
    ...A 2-minute 30% HP-restoring CD, but now with half a single-target Reprisal? Ehhh...

    The problem there is that many raid-buffs that need mitigation... can't be mitigated through debuffs on an enemy, simply because they're either independent or the boss isn't even attackable during that time.

    You could give the Dark Mind the Addle treatment, and it would feel less bad against physical tank busters.
    Sure. Sounds fine.

    You could make Living Dead just be a 20 second invuln that drops your HP to 1(you still take damage) that restores HP equal to damage dealt by 300%, and it would be better than Holmgang, and justify the 300 second cooldown.
    I wouldn't hate this.

    All of this would make up for the fact that Dark Knight would no longer have oGCD spam, and feel a lot less janky to play and would probably make Dark Knight be SO MUCH better than when it first launched in Heavensward.
    Thus far, what you've suggested sounds more jank to me than its present version, tbh. I also suspect I'd slightly prefer the HW version over what you're suggesting here. Frankly, having a higher number of oGCD attacks, and apm in general, than most other tanks --per periods of quick frenetic burst-- seems iconic to XIV's DRK, and I'd rather not throw that out.
    (1)

  2. #4052
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
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    12,853
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Some Brief Countersuggestions (more details on edit)...

    GOALS:
    • Improve DRK's leveling kit, such as through the addition of a lower-level TBN-predecessor.
    • Declutter opener slightly.
    • Increase gameplay engagement between bursts.
    • Improve DRK's defensive optionality in general.
    • Replace Darkside's present functionality.
    • Reduce sense of button-bloat.
    • Some further miscellaneous improvements for polish and diversity of gameplay.

    Spitballs to that Effect:
    • All DRK spells now instead classified as weaponskills, thereby scaling with SkS.
    • Living Dead now produces a grey mist around the DRK upon popping Living Dead and 3D misty skull above the DRK while Walking Dead is active. HP restored per weaponskill reduced, but oGCD attacks now also heal.
    • Dark Mind also reduces physical damage taken by 10%.
    • Living Shadow now summons in more quickly and can be retargeted while active. Maybe you sacrifice 25% of your stats to summon it, but your Living Shadow duplicates your actions at 50% effectiveness and can be consumed to prevent fatal damage that would kill you by less than 50% of your HP, meaning that it's a huge boon to Blood and MP generation atop a 12.5% damage increase and can act as a restrained pseudo-immunity. (Not consumed if Living Dead is active.) W/e. So long as it makes it more interesting.

    • Shadowskin added at level 35. Reduces damage taken by 15% until having reached a maximum of 10% of your HP thus nullified, lasting 5 seconds. 25s CD. At level 56 it upgrades to a 30% damage taken reduction until having reached a maximum of 20% of your HP thus nullified and extends the duration to 7s. Shadowskin effectively replaces The Blackest Night, which is instead relegated to an additional spending option from Shadowskin.
    • Blood Pact added at level 45. 60s CD. It sacrifices 20% of your HP to generate a shield equal to the same amount for 10s. At the end of that duration, any remaining barrier health is consumed to heal the target for the same. Each strike against the you while the barrier remains generates MP and your self-healing restores the barrier first, your own health second.
    • Blood Pact upgrades into Oblation, which does the same but generates MP from either of you being hit, has a second charge, and reduces the recharge time to 40s.

    • 'Dark Arts' returned in the form of "Dark Passenger", which allows you to spend 3k MP to use your cooldown-based abilities a second time within 5s of activation in order to trigger a further effect. Dark Passenger does not trigger an animation lock; instead of the player performing a physical animation, a sort of shadow self takes its place.
    • A new passive, Dark Dance, has been added. %HP of damage nullified or recovered from via Dark Passenger grants "Dark Dance" at an equal percent of MP, to a maximum of 30% per action, stacking up to 100%. This resource is consumed if your offensive actions would otherwise fail to meet its MP cost.

    • Using Dark Passenger on Dark Mind causes you also to duplicate 30% of all healing done and received, to a maximum of 30% of your HP thus restored.
    • Using Dark Passenger on Shadowskin shifts it to the chosen target (which can be yourself) and replaces it with The Blackest Night, instead reducing damage taken by 100% until having nullified damage equal to 30% of your HP. [I still prefer a 15s TBN, but...]
    • Using Dark Passenger on Shadow Wall causes you to channel a Wall of Shadow, flatly reducing all incoming damage by an amount equal to X% of your [Physical or Magical] Defense. On release, deals damage in an attack 270 degrees around you based on damage nullified.

    • Using Dark Passenger on Shadowbringer causes enemies to deal flatly reduced damage for 12s, based on a portion of the damage dealt by Shadowbringer.
    • Carve and Spit now deals less potency in itself but generates a Syphon Strike's worth of MP with each of its three attacks, making it a potent generator.
    • Abyssal Drain now siphons 300 MP and 200 potency worth of damage and healing from each enemy and additionally inflicts its target with Abyssal Drain, stealing a further 1500 MP over 15 seconds.
    • Using Dark Passenger on Carve and Spit deals significant bonus damage. Optimal to use, but not a huge loss if CnS is just used for MP generation instead.
    • Using Dark Passenger on Abyssal Drain causes you to gain Pull of the Abyss for 15 seconds, causing you to heal for 25% of damage dealt.

    • Blood Weapon now instead consumes Darkside duration, increasing damage and attack speed. (Possibility of this ramping with MP consumption, increasing the damage and attack speed percentages but even more greatly increasing the rate of Darkside consumption.) Timing-based skill expression based around MP gen, which in turn may be based around Dark Dance.

    • Souleater no longer heals. That capacity has been shuffled over to Bloodspiller and Quietus, whose timing is more controllable and whose acquisition have been greatly hastened.
    • Blood gauge opened and Bloodspiller acquired at level 35.
    • Bloodspiller now heals for 50% of its damage dealt and inflicts its target with Blood Spilt for 7 seconds, causing the Dark Knight to heal for 25% of damage it deals to that enemy.

    • Your weaponskills now all generate at least 5 Blood, though Souleater and Stalwart Soul now generate only 15. Souleater combo therefore generates 25 per use, Stalwart Soul combo 20 per use. You therefore generate at least 50 Blood per 6 GCDs, increasing rate of access to Blood skills by 25% in single-target combat.
    • Quietus now hits for 300 potency against its first target struck.
    • Quietus now grants the DRK Resolve (TBR), <something something defensive, suppressive, or damage-into-barrier buff>.

    • Possibility of replacing Edge and Flood, too, with Dark Passenger, via another, Continuation-like key usable after any weaponskill (allowing the animation to be dynamic, making it appear less spammy, and making the initial effects more responsive and the follow-ups slightly more timeable).
    • May again return AoEs to consuming MP, rather than generating it, if most weaponskills are permitted to cleave for partial damage, allowing AoEs instead to be used for burst AoE damage and utility.


    As mentioned, this is all very spitball, I may honestly end up having Blood and MP work recursively like Shroud, with Blood spent increasingly replacing a portion of the gauge with Black Blood and MP replacing that gauge with Darkside. At that point, Blood Weapon, Abyssal Drain, and Blood Pact would be the primary Blood spenders, while Bloodspiller and Delirium would be the Black Blood spenders, and Darkside would be used for incentivizing counteroffensives (spend MP on a defensive, get back Darkside, effectively refunding and empowering offensive MP spenders when unable to afford them otherwise.
    (2)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 11-12-2023 at 04:33 AM.

  3. #4053
    Player
    DRKoftheAzure's Avatar
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    Gridania and Ul'dah (because Ishgard not allowed to be starting city-state :c)
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    Character
    Strea Leonhart
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    I'm only going to respond to the stuff that piqued my interest...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    Why are we trying to make the job that always had comparatively high oGCD attack usage... lose most of its oGCDs?
    Because Dark Arts spam was stupid in Stormblood and I want to move away from what is essentially Dark Arts spam but under multiple different names

    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    I haven't seen many complaints about DRK having too many oGCD casts on the whole, only that they're too concentrated (that, per 120s, you burst them all within 15s and are then left bored for the remaining 105s).
    Thank you for proving to me once again, that you don't actually read...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    This would damn near force you to use it on CD, as it'd grant your 60s offensive CD every 25s so long as you pop it. Such would likely be vastly less now that you've made them GCDs, but still, no other on-demand directly grants damage in that way.
    That proves how bad you are at managing a single defensive cooldown

    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    Thus far, what you've suggested sounds more jank to me than its present version, tbh. I also suspect I'd slightly prefer the HW version over what you're suggesting here. Frankly, having a higher number of oGCD attacks, and apm in general, than most other tanks --per periods of quick frenetic burst-- seems iconic to XIV's DRK, and I'd rather not throw that out.
    Dark Knight sucks at being a tank with a high APM via oGCD, and Gunbreaker already does that better AND intentionally. And again, the high APM was a result of Stormblood Dark Arts spam. And I would like to enjoy looking at the animations before my next GCD becomes available, thank you.
    (2)
    Last edited by DRKoftheAzure; 11-11-2023 at 06:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEwah View Post
    Making things brain dead doesn't solve problems.

  4. #4054
    Player
    DRKoftheAzure's Avatar
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    Strea Leonhart
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    Diabolos
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    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Oizen View Post
    DRK has always been some level of ogcd spam, I don't think completely shifting away from that in a rework is a good idea.
    The job needs more gcds, but I don't think it should be made into a gcd combo job, we already have PLD and WAR for that.
    That was because of Dark Arts spam in Stormblood and I hated it... and Warrior doesn't even do the GCD combo job outside of 1-2-3A or 1-2-3B. Paladin could do a lot better with Sword Oath, and Confiteor combo I wish was not tied to Requiescat's activation, and Paladin would work better as high APM tank because shield and Gladiator training.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oizen View Post
    I also dont think its gameplay within buffs is all that bad, nor have I ever really struggled to keep everything in a buff window as hard as I have when I play GNB.
    To me the issue with DRK is more of it feels really weak outside of raid buffs, and frail too considering you're never going to have TBN after any burst window if you've dumped everything into it.
    Gunbreaker was designed with double weaving at the right time in mind, and does high APM thing better than Dark Knight. And The Blackest Night in it's current state should not be tied to damage dealt without a big enough payoff. But I do agree that Dark Knight is a bit too frail for when you DON'T have The Blackest Night.
    (1)
    Last edited by DRKoftheAzure; 11-11-2023 at 07:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEwah View Post
    Making things brain dead doesn't solve problems.

  5. #4055
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure View Post
    the high APM was a result of Stormblood Dark Arts spam.
    DRK already led in APM... in HW. That's been part of its gimmick from its literal inception.

    There is also significant differences between how/where that APM is paced and how that affects playflow. GNB has, on average, an APM between DRG and SAM, yet its flow of that APM is not much like either.

    Because Dark Arts spam was stupid in Stormblood
    Which has, what, exactly, with wanting to make most of DRK's offensive oGCDs NOW into GCDs?

    There is no Dark Arts. This is not Stormblood. You have not suggested a (restrained) reinclusion of Dark Arts. You have not suggested a (restrained) reinclusion of any part of Stormblood DRK. So how would Stormblood Dark Arts be remotely relevant to this?

    Thank you for proving to me once again, that you don't actually read
    By all means, find me the DRKs who hate using oGCDs, period, rather than simply wanting a more space in their 2m bursts and/or comparatively more to do between them?

    That proves how bad you are at managing a single defensive cooldown
    You suggested that every TBN, from which you had already removed the MP cost, should freely grant 3 Edges' worth of resources that have yet additional tack-on effects.

    How would that not entice using TBN as near as pop-ably possible to on CD? It would be a defensive tool only as a bottleneck and an offensive tool first and foremost.

    Quote Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure View Post
    And The Blackest Night in it's current state should not be tied to damage dealt without a big enough payoff. But I do agree that Dark Knight is a bit too frail for when you DON'T have The Blackest Night.
    ...Then why are you suggesting that the offensive value difference between popping and not popping it be doubled (3x for popping vs 1x for not, as compared to 1x for popping vs. 0x for not)?

    You still ultimately have to balance the job around that resource inflow. Any time you fail to get your suggested 3x Dark Arts per TBN, you've lost 2 Dark Arts. That's still damage being tied to it.
    (3)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 11-12-2023 at 02:49 AM.

  6. #4056
    Player
    Lyth's Avatar
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    Meracydia
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    Character
    Lythia Norvaine
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    DRK takes a similar approach to its action budget as NIN, which is why they tend to feel similar in terms of burst/downtime. There are a lot of 60s recast GCDs. The fact that Salted Earth had to be offset to 90 seconds highlights that the dev team are aware of how packed the burst window is. What's missing is GCD variety during downtime, which is partially the consequence of an underutilized blood gauge.

    I really dislike how the baseline combo generates resources, and I've been pointing this out since Stormblood. I think every combo step should generate blood, which is how resource generation works on more modern jobs. All of DRK's blood actions cost 50 blood. Blood is acquired in 20 blood increments on each Souleater. Who designed this? Change it to 10 blood per combo step, regardless of which GCD you're on, and regardless of whether it's single target or AoE.

    Rather than going back to a flat haste effect, I'd rather see individual GCDs that were sped up. For example, you could have blood-based attacks like Bloodspiller and Quietus on a 1.5s GCD instead.

    In short, I'd probably do something along the lines of this:
    Hard Slash/Syphon Strike/Soul Eater/Unleash/Stalwart Soul: Gain 10 blood.

    Bloodspiller: Costs 50 blood. 1.5s recast. Gain 1500 MP. Restores HP.
    Torcleaver: Combos off of Bloodspiller. 1.5s recast. Gain 1500 MP. Restores HP.
    Quietus: Costs 50 blood. 1.5s recast. Gain 3000 MP. Restores HP.

    I know this impacts MP generation prior to Lv. 62, but perhaps the solution is to just make the blood system available earlier.
    (1)

  7. #4057
    Player
    DRKoftheAzure's Avatar
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    Gridania and Ul'dah (because Ishgard not allowed to be starting city-state :c)
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    Strea Leonhart
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    Diabolos
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    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    DRK already lead in APM... in HW. That's been part of its gimmick from its literal inception.
    Okay, that was MOSTLY because of Parry builds but that was VERY inconsistent, and less Dark Arts that cause the high APM, and maybe Dark Dance and Dark Passenger Evasion bonuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    There is also significant differences between how/where that APM is paced and how that affects playflow. GNB has, on average, an APM between DRG and SAM, yet its flow of that APM is not much like either.
    So what's the APM for Dark Knight, Dragoon and Samurai right now? Because the average APM for Gunbreaker if you factor in Reprisal, 2-3 Heart of Corundum, and 1 Aurora for defensives, to about 45 APM on average, Paladin is slightly lower than (with room for error on APM due to frequency auto-attacks for Paladin) and that's if you doing casual content without using any other defensive cooldown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    Which has, what, exactly, with wanting to make most of DRK's offensive oGCDs NOW into GCDs?

    There is no Dark Arts. This is not Stormblood. You have not suggested a (restrained) reinclusion of Dark Arts. You have not suggested a (restrained) reinclusion of any part of Stormblood DRK. So how would Stormblood Dark Arts be remotely relevant to this?
    Because I am so fed up with how Dark Knight plays right now that I don't care restraining myself, and you are not helping in the slightest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    You suggested that every TBN, from which you had already removed the MP cost, should freely grant 3 Edges' worth of resources that have yet additional tack-on effects.

    How would that not entice using TBN as near as pop-ably possible to on CD? It would be a defensive tool only as a bottleneck and an offensive tool first and foremost.
    Again, that's says more about you wasting a single defensive cooldown that has the potential for 6 GCDs worth of free big damage for, otherwise, you only get 2 GCDs worth of free big damage, which is where the Quietus and Abyssal Drain reworks come in, for player like you... Though I do understand the concerns of it being overpowered, but the big damage makes up for the lack of oGCDs, something you CLEARLY did not understand...
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEwah View Post
    Making things brain dead doesn't solve problems.

  8. #4058
    Player
    DRKoftheAzure's Avatar
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    Strea Leonhart
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    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyth View Post
    DRK takes a similar approach to its action budget as NIN, which is why they tend to feel similar in terms of burst/downtime. There are a lot of 60s recast GCDs. The fact that Salted Earth had to be offset to 90 seconds highlights that the dev team are aware of how packed the burst window is. What's missing is GCD variety during downtime, which is partially the consequence of an underutilized blood gauge.

    I really dislike how the baseline combo generates resources, and I've been pointing this out since Stormblood. I think every combo step should generate blood, which is how resource generation works on more modern jobs. All of DRK's blood actions cost 50 blood. Blood is acquired in 20 blood increments on each Souleater. Who designed this? Change it to 10 blood per combo step, regardless of which GCD you're on, and regardless of whether it's single target or AoE.
    More like an amalgamation of pre-existing jobs put together and call it a rework from Shadowbringers, but yeah the GCD variety is VERY lacking... and 10 Job Specific Gauge per combo step(auto-attacks in case of Paladin) SHOULD be standard for ALL JOBS. Also Red Mage would probably feel SO MUCH better to play if it generated White and Black Mana consistantly in increments of 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyth View Post
    Rather than going back to a flat haste effect, I'd rather see individual GCDs that were sped up. For example, you could have blood-based attacks like Bloodspiller and Quietus on a 1.5s GCD instead.
    Yeah I don't see that happening unless it's a passive trait for ALL jobs... Though I am also okay with Darkside being a passive trait that you don't need to turn on and maintain, same with Living Shadow being a trait that just boosts potency by up to 300... Keep the pets on Arcanist jobs, Beast Master, and Puppet Master please and thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyth View Post
    I know this impacts MP generation prior to Lv. 62, but perhaps the solution is to just make the blood system available earlier.
    That's what I proposed for Edge of Darkness/Shadow but apparently no one likes my idea... Just ask Shurrikhan, and they REALLY don't like my ideas...
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEwah View Post
    Making things brain dead doesn't solve problems.

  9. #4059
    Player
    Lyth's Avatar
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    Lythia Norvaine
    World
    Gilgamesh
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    Viper Lv 100
    I'm not suggesting a traited global speed increase on DRK. What I'm actually doing is turning Delirium into a modified version of Enshroud on DRK. If you add a second action (in this case, Torcleaver) that directly combos off of Bloodspiller and reduce both GCDs to 1.5s, then you're essentially turning Delirium into a 6 GCD burst. Every two blood GCDs you gain a free Edge/Flood that you weave into the mix.

    As much as I liked Blood Weapon's speed boost, I've actually grown to love having a few dedicated 1.5s GCDs so much more. It just feels good.

    I don't mind Living Shadow conceptually, but the design concept feels a bit clunky because of the summoning lag. It probably would have been better off going the Bunshin route, which is somewhat in line with what you've suggested.

    I do like the idea of interplay between MP and blood. I've been advocating for blood moves to generate MP and vice versa since Stormblood. MP is a slightly awkward system, however, and I feel that jobs are better off if they just use a unique dual resource system. It becomes a bit more complex to design around MP because you also have to account for passive ticks that continue during downtime periods, which ends up with generation either being too fast (Stormblood) or too slow (post-Shadowbringers). I think blood is a more predictable system, though, so building from blood to MP probably makes more sense than making it a recursive loop.
    (3)

  10. #4060
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Tani Shirai
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    Cactuar
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    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure View Post
    Again, that's says more about you wasting a single defensive cooldown that has the potential for 6 GCDs worth of free big damage for, otherwise, you only get 2 GCDs worth of free big damage, which is where the Quietus and Abyssal Drain reworks come in, for player like you... Though I do understand the concerns of it being overpowered, but the big damage makes up for the lack of oGCDs, something you CLEARLY did not understand...
    6 GCDs of "free big damage" every 25s, for a total of 14.4 free GCDs of damage per minute, equating to over 10% of your total DPS in that single "defensive" ability?

    "Big damage" does not make up for degraded playflow. "Big damage" is an accident that gets patched out as soon as possible unless it's really just taken from elsewhere in the kit, which then means "your offensive kit is jank af, overly concentrating itself around a single button (a "defensive" of all things, in this case), for no net increase in capacity".

    Your entire attempt here is contradictory as hell.

    No, removing DRK's oGCDs just to then make TBN a larger damage loss than before when not popped (and yes, it is a damage loss; every advantage you fail to get is still a loss, regardless of what it says on the tin, because your balanced will be balanced around reasonable play, not utter failure) does not "make up" for anything.

    Okay, that was MOSTLY because of Parry builds but that was VERY inconsistent, and less Dark Arts that cause the high APM, and maybe Dark Dance and Dark Passenger Evasion bonuses.
    Literally no. One does not have to factor in HW Reprisal or Low Blow for DRK to have had, from its inception, a higher APM than PLD or especially Warrior.

    Because the average APM
    Rotational APM measurements do not factor in defensives, self-heals, or non-rDPS utility actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure View Post
    That's what I proposed for Edge of Darkness/Shadow but apparently no one likes my idea... Just ask Shurrikhan, and they REALLY don't like my ideas...
    I don't like most of DRK's oGCD attacks being removed in favor of convoluted Blood spending that ultimately offers nothing extra save to force further bundling of actions via a knockoff RDM combo and increased damage loss from failed TBNs.

    That has nothing whatsoever to do with whether I'd like to see the Blood gauge added before level 62. Which, also, your post made zero mention of anyways, and still makes no mention of after your edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure View Post
    I've already made a conscious decision to not level up Dark Knight in the next expac if doesn't get a rework that makes it feel less bad to play with raid buffs... because the oGCD spam makes it VERY hard to fit all of those oGCDs into 20 second burst window while also clipping the GCD...

    You can convert Salt and Darkness into GCD spell that combos after Stalwart Soul and move it to level that Salted Earth is and it would make AoE feel slightly better, though could make Stalwart Soul and Salt and Darkness restore MP, Blood gauge, and restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit(see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details).

    Heck you could make Blood Weapon be a mini Darkside that grants 15-25% haste which then becomes Darkside when you do the quest to unlock it, and then have Darkside become Living Shadow with the dark flames aura that also boosts potency by 100-300, and we can keep the ways to maintain Darkside and have those apply to Blood Weapon and Living Shadow.
    Edit: Basically I just want to turn and maintain Darkside in and out of of combat with the haste effect of Heavensward/Stormblood Blood Weapon.
    Edit 2: Have Darkside upgrade into Delirium to where it generates a Dark Arts stack every 15 seconds indicated by the Darkside timer(or gauge as the devs called it) and have Delirium become Living Shadow A.K.A. True Darkside.

    You could bring back Dark Passenger, make it GCD that costs MP, and have it combo into Flood of Darkness/Shadow, which then combos into Shadowbringer, and they all cost 3000 MP each, because the MP guzzling aspect of Dark Knight is enough to make it stand out from the other tanks, I just wish the MP spenders were GCDs, and I wish they gave Blood gauge, and restored HP equal to damage dealt per hit (see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details) and were DPS neutral in single target to Blood gauge spender at the start and ramps up, and you could make these share 1 button space like Gnashing Fang combo or Confiteor combo.

    Edge of Darkness/Shadow you could make it become a GCD weaponskill that cost 20 Blood gauge, that combos into Bloodspiller that costs 15 Blood Gauge, that combos into Carve and Spit that also cost 15 Blood gauge, and they could restore MP and restore HP equal to damage dealt(see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details), and you could also make these share 1 button.

    You could make Quietus cost 15 Blood gauge and have restore MP, and make Abyssal Drain a GCD that cost 3000 MP that restore Blood gauge, make both restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit(see the Melee DPS role action Bloodbath for more details), and people would would try to find a use for these.

    Dark Arts button we can bring back as 60 second cooldown which grants 3 Dark Arts charges, which double the potency of all actions, ignore resources for 3 actions and if used on Dark Passenger, Flood of Darkness/Shadow, and/or Shadowbringer it converts Dark Arts into a new resource called Blood Arts which is basically triples damage dealt for Blood gauge spenders, but only in combat. The Blackest Night have the MP cost removed, but would need it's recast timer increased to 25 seconds, and if falls off 1 Dark Arts charge, if it breaks it grants 3 instead.

    You could bring back 4.3 Sole Survivor, buff it to where it increase damage dealt to enemies by 5%(or damage enemies receive to better understand it) and reduce the amount of damage that those enemies would deal to players by 10%, have it be 2 charges, and it would give Dark Knight a raid buff that's good against bosses and also good in dungeons. Not good for when bosses become non-targetable to keep it balanced

    You could give the Dark Mind the Addle treatment, and it would feel less bad against physical tank busters.

    You could make Living Dead just be a 20 second invuln that drops your HP to 1(you still take damage) that restores HP equal to damage dealt by 300%, and it would be better than Holmgang, and justify the 300 second cooldown. Yes I am aware that the other tanks would complain about their invuln not being as long as Living Dead but that's the point.

    All of this would make up for the fact that Dark Knight would no longer have oGCD spam, and feel a lot less janky to play and would probably make Dark Knight be SO MUCH better than when it first launched in Heavensward.


    Also Red Mage would probably feel SO MUCH better to play if it generated White and Black Mana consistantly in increments of 10.
    If you really mean "White and Black Mana" together, there'd be only 2 GCDs of casting between each melee combo, as the melee combo itself has 3 generators after the 3 spenders. If you remove their generation, it's still only 5 GCDs of building for every 6 GCDs of spending, which would gut the burst available to those spenders.

    If you mean each generates "White or Black Mana" then you encounter a further issue: What do you do with Jolt, Scatter/Impact, Scorch, and Resolution? If you have Jolt likewise work in consistent increments of 10, then people would just ignore their elemental casts in favor of faster combo preps unless you massively change their balance of potencies. And in either case, you've still increased Mana generation by 67 to 400% depending on the skill, again meaning that your spenders can barely have any burst.

    Though I am also okay with Darkside being a passive trait that you don't need to turn on and maintain, same with Living Shadow being a trait that just boosts potency by up to 300
    Where/when/how did balance hurt you so badly? Having LS effectively just boost potency is fine, but if you just make it permanent then... there's no gameplay there, only a balancing nightmare that would leave DRK missing two-thirds of its damage until level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyth View Post
    I'm not suggesting a traited global speed increase on DRK. What I'm actually doing is turning Delirium into a modified version of Enshroud on DRK. If you add a second action (in this case, Torcleaver) that directly combos off of Bloodspiller and reduce both GCDs to 1.5s, then you're essentially turning Delirium into a 6 GCD burst. Every two blood GCDs you gain a free Edge/Flood that you weave into the mix.

    As much as I liked Blood Weapon's speed boost, I've actually grown to love having a few dedicated 1.5s GCDs so much more. It just feels good.
    I'm not a fan of how they don't scale with SkS and would prefer a simple 60% GCD length instead of the fixed timer, but yeah, I'd be cool with that. I'd rather have a more noticeable pacing difference of fewer -40% GCD recast times than many more -10% or -15% GCD recast times.

    I don't mind Living Shadow conceptually, but the design concept feels a bit clunky because of the summoning lag. It probably would have been better off going the Bunshin route
    I'd still like to see the separate unit, but wouldn't mind it just summoning in more quickly and attacking each time you attack (effectively, just a flat ST or AoE GCD potency increase or %damage increase on your GCDs over the duration) instead of being solely a DoT.
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    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 11-12-2023 at 03:56 AM.

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