Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Shurrikhan]

It's decent outside of dungeons and very fine in dungeons, nice correction. And thank you for doing basic math, that's how basic AoE's work when they scale more based on even more enemies.

Ffs.

Look at your ST ppgcd.
Now look at your AoE ppgcd.

Hell, just take any given spender with both choices, such as Fell Cleave (520 potency) and Decimate (200n potency).

Do they both do the same potency per target?

If not, you're again missing/avoiding the point.

What question? That there's a vocal minority whining about something that's doing pretty good?

There's people who care more about gameplay that merely being FotM complaining about their kit being shallowed out so that their job can be optimized by 5-year-olds.

And the "question" was literally yours: Why is tank sustain roughly balance in all raids, trials, etc. (they're not, but we'll run with your false premise, I guess), but not in dungeons.

To which the answer is, again, literally just the way EW Nascent/Bloodwhetting's power scales, which is not equivalent to general AoE power scaling, because every other AoE in the game deals less per-target than their ST alternatives while EW Nascent/Bloodwhetting does not.

if all people wanna do is try to tear down a nice tank

Tfw asking for a mere return to some actual kit interaction and depth more than microns deep is trying "to tear down" a tank...

[MikoRemi]

Snip

How to destroy a fine skill, genius.

That's more or less an issue with enemies not hitting hard enough, but we've seen what happens when enemies hit hard in things like Bardam's Mettle or even Tower of Zot, there's a bit of a freak out. It's not really the fault of the skill, it just benefits pulling massively. Plus again, AoE is only part of the equation and you can't ignore the full picture.

That's a more common one with Shake it Off, that's part of what makes it especially handy with the only big boost to the shield coming at the expensive of your own mitigation. The cooldown is long enough though that it isn't really easy to chain.

Well then good luck seeing more threads on DRK along with Abyssal Drain not getting changed to use up MP instead since it doesn't need it. Funny that you mention burst though since that's what every tank does only GNB has long combo chains, and DRK just empties MP to a certain point. Comes down to preference at that point, I like having my strong tank though, so we can agree to disagree then.

[MikoRemi]

Snip

And again you're simply boiling it down to technicalities. Yes, you do 200 potency per target, but it doesn't change the effective damage output increasing the more targets you put up. You seem to be the one not understanding how it maths out. Whether it's 3 enemies or something like 18 enemies, AoE's will always be stronger regardless. This is true of things like Decimate as it is for Bloodwhetting. If you can't math that out then I don't know what to tell you.

Welcome to FF14 where guard rails have to be implemented because these same 5-year-olds can't hit Diversion or Mana Shift the healers to make sure they don't run out of mana. The game has unfortunately had to get easier over time since players can't be trusted with a single thing. In terms of WAR though since everyone loves to rail on it here, back in SHB it's basically just throw out Nascent Flash since it would heal. Long as it healed, even the 20% mitigation from Raw Intuition didn't matter much. They eventually changed it so there's a reason to use a single target or the support version.

The question has long since answered yet the wrong conclusions repeatedly get drawn out. Clearly it isn't balanced considering the start of the thread, so the solution is to...weaken WAR? Yeah that won't change much but make unhappy WAR's. Making Dark Mind actually good though, maybe even throwing in a bone with Blood Price? The only people who hate that are the same ones wishing for Stance Dancing back because it just took so much skill.

Congratulations on explaining why AoE's work better than ST in general. This isn't different from Nascent and Bloodwhetting. The actual potencies aren't even needed, 3+ or more, things that hit multiple enemies are indeed more effective, and get even stronger with more enemies. It's not the potency itself going out that boosts, it's how many that feeds into it(Bloodwhetting) or how much goes out in general(3 vs 18).

Or instead of looking at something that hasn't been a problem, look into something that repeatedly gets brought up. I want DRK to be stronger, that'd be nice to see. WAR is fine, needs the bind part of HG removed entirely and the physical reflect on Vengeance I could care less if it was there or not, but otherwise it's doing quite fine. Going backwards is just using Nascent Flash once more and ignoring Raw Intuition, again. That's less kit interaction and more of finding the viable button.

Guess well just have to see what comes next in Dawntrail though eh? Cheers to DRK hopefully.

[Zairava]

How to destroy a fine skill, genius.

That's more or less an issue with enemies not hitting hard enough, but we've seen what happens when enemies hit hard in things like Bardam's Mettle or even Tower of Zot, there's a bit of a freak out. It's not really the fault of the skill, it just benefits pulling massively. Plus again, AoE is only part of the equation and you can't ignore the full picture.

That's a more common one with Shake it Off, that's part of what makes it especially handy with the only big boost to the shield coming at the expensive of your own mitigation. The cooldown is long enough though that it isn't really easy to chain.

Well then good luck seeing more threads on DRK along with Abyssal Drain not getting changed to use up MP instead since it doesn't need it. Funny that you mention burst though since that's what every tank does only GNB has long combo chains, and DRK just empties MP to a certain point. Comes down to preference at that point, I like having my strong tank though, so we can agree to disagree then.

I want you to explain to me, in detail, just exactly how Bloodwhetting being made per use or a portion of damage dealt is going to all of a sudden break Warrior to pieces in dungeons. You are stubbornly dying on this hill that somehow it's a bad thing that making it necessary to use more of your toolkit, which would: a) increase player interaction/engagement with its toolkit and b) increase healer engagement.

I have yet to see anybody "freak out" over the increased need to heal or the notable damage intake in Bardam's or Zot, or on-launch Holminister. It's a good thing when the pace is shaken up sometimes. You know what happens the majority of times if the worst happens and the party wipes? The players attempt again or do it slower depending on: a) what happened and b) why it happened. It really is not a big deal.

Yeah, every job in the game bursts, that wasn't the point I was making. DRK is a complete snoozefest outside of its bursts. That's the point. GNB has a burst every 1m, a bigger burst every 2m, and a mini burst every 30s, it's the most active and why you don't see many people complain about GNB's burst downtime.

If this hasn't been made clear by now, I don't care if people complain about DRK's sustain. Whether I want old Abyssal Drain back or not (I do), DRK functions and performs perfectly fine in dungeons. If they don't want to put any effort into knowing their job or kit then maybe they shouldn't be playing the job or complaining about something they refuse to learn in the first place.

It doesn't matter how mindnumbingly boring and simple you make any job or role, the people who don't want to learn or put any effort in simply won't, they will forever not care whether it's simple or isn't, and trying to cater to those players will only make the people who already enjoyed the job unhappy at the very least.

[MikoRemi]

Snip.

Besides it just being unnecessary compared to bigger issues like Dark Mind, how much healing has to be cut for you lot to be satisfied? If by chance WAR’s are still able to continue healing fine hypothetically, would that be where it ends? I doubt it. People would still whine until it couldn’t sustain itself. It’s a simple thing with nerfs, the nerf hammer hardly has an end, buffing can only go so far. It’s funny too since Bloodwhetting hasn’t been touched at all, that’s quite a rare feat for anything, so if it was truly an issue, something would’ve been done.

I see someone wasn’t around in Stormblood. It gets tiring very quickly when a repeatable becomes a slog just because of lazy players. It takes what can be a 13 minute run to a 20 minute run which adds up over the course of content. I suppose you also didn’t know what content like Orbonne Monastery was like at first release where disbands tend to occur because of how strict it was. That’s more of an hour wasted. Believe me, whether it’s a spike in damage or mechanics for casual content, it was not pretty.

GNB is the more active tank, with DRK coming in second. So not that hard to follow. PLD and WAR by comparison are the slower alternatives. Tank’s have hardly ever been that engaging in their rotations though unless you want to count TP which sucked for everyone back in the day. If we had more GCD’s though it’d help which is where combo consolidation could occur to open up for more options. Personally WAR is a fine time, Stormblood it wasn’t all that much more despite the insistence with stance dancing and such, but like all tanks they were certainly weaker at the time.

You don’t care, the threads aren’t all you though. DRK can handle ok, but it’s certainly the harder of the tanks when it comes to dealing with a snafu.

Certainly true, but guard rails have been implemented from every expansion up to SHB. From the button bloat hell of HW to the party responsibility in SB, it all had to change and fortunately it makes for smoother runs as a whole. Meanwhile in Extreme and onward, it still remains crazy but you only deal with the fight mechanics and DPS checks instead of all of that plus your job. The people who don’t learn get the boot, the ones who do can ascend.

If you and the minority want to rag on WAR then I guess you’re free to continue. Don’t be surprised when more threads pop off though.

[Zairava]

Besides it just being unnecessary compared to bigger issues like Dark Mind, how much healing has to be cut for you lot to be satisfied? If by chance WAR’s are still able to continue healing fine hypothetically, would that be where it ends? I doubt it. People would still whine until it couldn’t sustain itself. It’s a simple thing with nerfs, the nerf hammer hardly has an end, buffing can only go so far. It’s funny too since Bloodwhetting hasn’t been touched at all, that’s quite a rare feat for anything, so if it was truly an issue, something would’ve been done.

I see someone wasn’t around in Stormblood. It gets tiring very quickly when a repeatable becomes a slog just because of lazy players. It takes what can be a 13 minute run to a 20 minute run which adds up over the course of content. I suppose you also didn’t know what content like Orbonne Monastery was like at first release where disbands tend to occur because of how strict it was. That’s more of an hour wasted. Believe me, whether it’s a spike in damage or mechanics for casual content, it was not pretty.

GNB is the more active tank, with DRK coming in second. So not that hard to follow. PLD and WAR by comparison are the slower alternatives. Tank’s have hardly ever been that engaging in their rotations though unless you want to count TP which sucked for everyone back in the day. If we had more GCD’s though it’d help which is where combo consolidation could occur to open up for more options. Personally WAR is a fine time, Stormblood it wasn’t all that much more despite the insistence with stance dancing and such, but like all tanks they were certainly weaker at the time.

You don’t care, the threads aren’t all you though. DRK can handle ok, but it’s certainly the harder of the tanks when it comes to dealing with a snafu.

Certainly true, but guard rails have been implemented from every expansion up to SHB. From the button bloat hell of HW to the party responsibility in SB, it all had to change and fortunately it makes for smoother runs as a whole. Meanwhile in Extreme and onward, it still remains crazy but you only deal with the fight mechanics and DPS checks instead of all of that plus your job. The people who don’t learn get the boot, the ones who do can ascend.

If you and the minority want to rag on WAR then I guess you’re free to continue. Don’t be surprised when more threads pop off though.

I was there in Stormblood, and I was a new player, tanking the whole bit at that, who just started when Stormblood launched, but hey thanks for assuming I wasn't.

You could literally just merge Bloodwhetting into one ability again (Nascent Flash) and make it function exactly like it did in Shadowbringers and you would see less complaints, that's it.

I revel in chaos, and wiping really isn't a huge issue. We need to try again, so what? If the player is really being that much of a nuisance they aren't even doing the basic fundamentals of their role you can kick them in place of someone else.

I felt immensely more immersed and engaged with nearly every kit during Stormblood, even while leveling the entire way through. Job design was as its peak then. I want to be engaged with my job not be asleep at my keyboard. TP deserved to rot, though.

The threads aren't all me, and the people who complain about it don't represent everyone either. I rarely see anybody actually complain about it, just "yeah it's harder on DRK in dungeons because of the lack of sustain but when you learn how to use your defensives it's plenty powerful enough"

I'll take pre-nerf Orbonne anyday over the snorefest that is what they currently are. Alliance specific mechanics are sorely lacking.

[Shurrikhan]

I want you to explain to me, in detail, just exactly how Bloodwhetting being made per use or...

To be fair, having it be a single flat heal per affected action (i.e., regardless of total damage dealt) would also be a poor choice, since it would likely then slightly underperform relative to Holy Shelltron and Heart of Corundum in AoE situations.

The best way to handle it really is just to return it to healing for a portion of damage dealt. In that way it can balance itself simultaneously for AoE and ST situations, instead of attempting to balance itself for ST and having absurdly high (ST_tuning_point_x_target_count) or increasingly low (ST_tuning_point_only) output.

[HyonaCookie]

Because DRK, for the quintillionth time, does. not. need it. It is not behind on sustain because it does not need it. Nor does Gunbreaker. The people that do complain about it have a genuine skill issue or are complaining simply because they have to put forth a modicum of extra effort or healers complaining that they need to *checks notes* do their job and heal.

Skill issues should be for high-end content, not dungeons. What's wrong with every job in a role having equal footing in casual content. If I want to play DRK in dungeons, I should be allowed to play what I want to without being told I'm griefing the party for playing it and told to use trusts instead. The meta shouldn't exist in mandatory content.

[Zairava]

To be fair, having it be a single flat heal per affected action (i.e., regardless of total damage dealt) would also be a poor choice, since it would likely then slightly underperform relative to Holy Shelltron and Heart of Corundum in AoE situations.

The best way to handle it really is just to return it to healing for a portion of damage dealt. In that way it can balance itself simultaneously for AoE and ST situations, instead of attempting to balance itself for ST and having absurdly high (ST_tuning_point_x_target_count) or increasingly low (ST_tuning_point_only) output.

I can agree with that, healing isn't mitigation after all. Shadowbringer's Nascent Flash is the way. It's the only true path to having the medium I feel. Especially since you can time it with infuriate when it comes off cooldown or save that charge for when your health gets on the lower end, (there's also the inverse, saving NF for your infuriate charge if possible).

Out of curiosity, do we know what the percentage was for the lifeleech on NF during Shadowbringers? If I had to take a wild crack at it, would 40-60% of damage dealt be reasonable? if we're to take my 9k from the 2 pages prior, that should land it to around 3.6k(40%)-5.4k(60%) per hit, non crits of course.

[MikoRemi]

Snip

So was I, in fact my very first job was Marauder fancy that. Hard to tell with the way you're talking like a SHB player.

Besides being a pain in the ass in solo content again since it requires a partner, you'd get complaints since Bloodwhetting is out, it exists, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. It would undoubtedly make things worse, but let's assume it's just like normal in dungeons. Ok then who cares, why waste the time to revert it then. The only complaints I hear either way are just portions of the forums, nobody else asks for WAR nerfs.

Good for you, if I'm gonna repeat content over and over for leveling or otherwise, I'd rather not waste mine or anyone else's time when running content. Considerations for work and school and all that jazz. Unfortunately the majority of the playerbase don't have that mentality so we get some bad runs. You can also only kick so much until you get a group of friends that fight back against the kick, so good luck with that especially with most players not paying attention to others much. Time wasted is time wasted at the end of the day.

The idea was great, but the execution unfortunately lead to player responsibility to manage aggro, MP, TP and all that jazz which if you are indeed a SB player, you cannot tell me with a straight face that people were doing that the majority of the time. Most players can't even handle using Diversion let alone any actual "complicated" buttons.

Literally just the front page has a fair amount of DRK posts. Yes you could make DRK's defensives work ok because it's a dungeon at the end of the day, but besides the sustain well pull back to Dark Mind once more. In an age where Addle can mitigate both physical and magical damage, PLD can block magic with their shield(used to not), and most tanks can mitigate all damage, why does DRK have to be the magic tank again?

Considering how bad people do in the latest raid when it's relatively simple, I'd rather not. If I want that kind of content I'll get in the next "Eureka" because me and the others will know what were signing up for. If the players would up themselves then I'm sure we would've kept to the SB design, but you can see why that's not the case, and as we both know, there's no depths people won't sink down to. Just that by SHB and EW, that hasn't been nearly as much of a problem with the new guard rails. Not everything from the old days was amazing and unless the playerbase actively try to improve themselves on a major scale, I'll at least keep WAR how it is since adjustments could be done to actual problem jobs, and that way I can mitigate the problems there are with performance.