Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Zairava]

Indeed with higher numbers it can certainly add up to that, I won't argue the math at the least. That's just how it goes when you add more enemies to the pile though. It certainly won't benediction on single targets, and that's the thing to consider.

Rithy tends to want Bloodwhetting to only work on one enemy at a time which is essentially a large nerf even if not to the potency itself. I can't remember every single thread ever made on this site of course, but the vocal minority here also want Warrior's healing removed completely. It's a sad time. In regards to Shoha II's existence, that's more fine since Samurai actually has a button bloating issue, with WAR especially it doesn't really have too many buttons outside of the 1-2-3, 1-2-4 and 1-2 AoE. A lot of those could just be fixed with 1-1-1, 1-1-2 sorts as a toggleable option of course, if only to quell the people who would find that system braindead...even if there's almost no difference between the two in terms of skill.

Balanced in single target indeed, and just happens to scale a lot better when you add more enemies. It really would depend but honestly as it is, it's not one of the major things that need changing nor is it as insanely broken as people say, or else it would've gotten slapped quite quickly. Nowadays I keep it up for either AoE heals, some mitigation and shielding for bigger hits, or slap it on someone who needs it for whatever reason. It's already quite fine.

Yes, and it being a single target non-benediction is how it should function if they aren't going to revert it to it's Shadowbringers counterpart.

"A lot better" and "just fine" is such a horrific understatement. You are defending what is essentially an invulnerability skill in dungeons that you use every 25 seconds that lasts 8 seconds. So long as you press that one single button and press aoe skills you will. not. die., and more often than not be at full HP, for 8 seconds.

The only healing I've seen people wanted removed completely, including myself, is the party healing on Shake it Off.

What question? That there's a vocal minority whining about something that's doing pretty good? I mean it's hardly surprising, more surprising is coming from someone that hates to read other threads selectively and yet you ask me to do so when I in fact remember related threads when you love to ask "How is this relevant to what you're quoting, though". No the real question that will come up over and over, is why DRK is behind in the sustain game. It's why well get more threads of DRK needing help, patches to other tanks being a middle finger to DRK, and why the start of this thread began with DRK.

WAR is a great tank, so is PLD, GNB is a bit finnicky but it's still pretty great. DRK is getting closer and closer, but it just needs a little more. However if all people wanna do is try to tear down a nice tank instead of bringing up the one that consistently gets brought up often, then it'll be little wonder that DRK doesn't get much. Enjoy I suppose.

Because DRK, for the quintillionth time, does. not. need it. It is not behind on sustain because it does not need it. Nor does Gunbreaker. The people that do complain about it have a genuine skill issue or are complaining simply because they have to put forth a modicum of extra effort or healers complaining that they need to *checks notes* do their job and heal.

The absolute last thing DRK needs is to become even more foolproofed when it's already boring as sin in every moment except when you're bursting.

[MikoRemi]

Snip

How to destroy a fine skill, genius.

That's more or less an issue with enemies not hitting hard enough, but we've seen what happens when enemies hit hard in things like Bardam's Mettle or even Tower of Zot, there's a bit of a freak out. It's not really the fault of the skill, it just benefits pulling massively. Plus again, AoE is only part of the equation and you can't ignore the full picture.

That's a more common one with Shake it Off, that's part of what makes it especially handy with the only big boost to the shield coming at the expensive of your own mitigation. The cooldown is long enough though that it isn't really easy to chain.

Well then good luck seeing more threads on DRK along with Abyssal Drain not getting changed to use up MP instead since it doesn't need it. Funny that you mention burst though since that's what every tank does only GNB has long combo chains, and DRK just empties MP to a certain point. Comes down to preference at that point, I like having my strong tank though, so we can agree to disagree then.

[Zairava]

How to destroy a fine skill, genius.

That's more or less an issue with enemies not hitting hard enough, but we've seen what happens when enemies hit hard in things like Bardam's Mettle or even Tower of Zot, there's a bit of a freak out. It's not really the fault of the skill, it just benefits pulling massively. Plus again, AoE is only part of the equation and you can't ignore the full picture.

That's a more common one with Shake it Off, that's part of what makes it especially handy with the only big boost to the shield coming at the expensive of your own mitigation. The cooldown is long enough though that it isn't really easy to chain.

Well then good luck seeing more threads on DRK along with Abyssal Drain not getting changed to use up MP instead since it doesn't need it. Funny that you mention burst though since that's what every tank does only GNB has long combo chains, and DRK just empties MP to a certain point. Comes down to preference at that point, I like having my strong tank though, so we can agree to disagree then.

I want you to explain to me, in detail, just exactly how Bloodwhetting being made per use or a portion of damage dealt is going to all of a sudden break Warrior to pieces in dungeons. You are stubbornly dying on this hill that somehow it's a bad thing that making it necessary to use more of your toolkit, which would: a) increase player interaction/engagement with its toolkit and b) increase healer engagement.

I have yet to see anybody "freak out" over the increased need to heal or the notable damage intake in Bardam's or Zot, or on-launch Holminister. It's a good thing when the pace is shaken up sometimes. You know what happens the majority of times if the worst happens and the party wipes? The players attempt again or do it slower depending on: a) what happened and b) why it happened. It really is not a big deal.

Yeah, every job in the game bursts, that wasn't the point I was making. DRK is a complete snoozefest outside of its bursts. That's the point. GNB has a burst every 1m, a bigger burst every 2m, and a mini burst every 30s, it's the most active and why you don't see many people complain about GNB's burst downtime.

If this hasn't been made clear by now, I don't care if people complain about DRK's sustain. Whether I want old Abyssal Drain back or not (I do), DRK functions and performs perfectly fine in dungeons. If they don't want to put any effort into knowing their job or kit then maybe they shouldn't be playing the job or complaining about something they refuse to learn in the first place.

It doesn't matter how mindnumbingly boring and simple you make any job or role, the people who don't want to learn or put any effort in simply won't, they will forever not care whether it's simple or isn't, and trying to cater to those players will only make the people who already enjoyed the job unhappy at the very least.

[MikoRemi]

Snip.

Besides it just being unnecessary compared to bigger issues like Dark Mind, how much healing has to be cut for you lot to be satisfied? If by chance WAR’s are still able to continue healing fine hypothetically, would that be where it ends? I doubt it. People would still whine until it couldn’t sustain itself. It’s a simple thing with nerfs, the nerf hammer hardly has an end, buffing can only go so far. It’s funny too since Bloodwhetting hasn’t been touched at all, that’s quite a rare feat for anything, so if it was truly an issue, something would’ve been done.

I see someone wasn’t around in Stormblood. It gets tiring very quickly when a repeatable becomes a slog just because of lazy players. It takes what can be a 13 minute run to a 20 minute run which adds up over the course of content. I suppose you also didn’t know what content like Orbonne Monastery was like at first release where disbands tend to occur because of how strict it was. That’s more of an hour wasted. Believe me, whether it’s a spike in damage or mechanics for casual content, it was not pretty.

GNB is the more active tank, with DRK coming in second. So not that hard to follow. PLD and WAR by comparison are the slower alternatives. Tank’s have hardly ever been that engaging in their rotations though unless you want to count TP which sucked for everyone back in the day. If we had more GCD’s though it’d help which is where combo consolidation could occur to open up for more options. Personally WAR is a fine time, Stormblood it wasn’t all that much more despite the insistence with stance dancing and such, but like all tanks they were certainly weaker at the time.

You don’t care, the threads aren’t all you though. DRK can handle ok, but it’s certainly the harder of the tanks when it comes to dealing with a snafu.

Certainly true, but guard rails have been implemented from every expansion up to SHB. From the button bloat hell of HW to the party responsibility in SB, it all had to change and fortunately it makes for smoother runs as a whole. Meanwhile in Extreme and onward, it still remains crazy but you only deal with the fight mechanics and DPS checks instead of all of that plus your job. The people who don’t learn get the boot, the ones who do can ascend.

If you and the minority want to rag on WAR then I guess you’re free to continue. Don’t be surprised when more threads pop off though.

[Zairava]

Besides it just being unnecessary compared to bigger issues like Dark Mind, how much healing has to be cut for you lot to be satisfied? If by chance WAR’s are still able to continue healing fine hypothetically, would that be where it ends? I doubt it. People would still whine until it couldn’t sustain itself. It’s a simple thing with nerfs, the nerf hammer hardly has an end, buffing can only go so far. It’s funny too since Bloodwhetting hasn’t been touched at all, that’s quite a rare feat for anything, so if it was truly an issue, something would’ve been done.

I see someone wasn’t around in Stormblood. It gets tiring very quickly when a repeatable becomes a slog just because of lazy players. It takes what can be a 13 minute run to a 20 minute run which adds up over the course of content. I suppose you also didn’t know what content like Orbonne Monastery was like at first release where disbands tend to occur because of how strict it was. That’s more of an hour wasted. Believe me, whether it’s a spike in damage or mechanics for casual content, it was not pretty.

GNB is the more active tank, with DRK coming in second. So not that hard to follow. PLD and WAR by comparison are the slower alternatives. Tank’s have hardly ever been that engaging in their rotations though unless you want to count TP which sucked for everyone back in the day. If we had more GCD’s though it’d help which is where combo consolidation could occur to open up for more options. Personally WAR is a fine time, Stormblood it wasn’t all that much more despite the insistence with stance dancing and such, but like all tanks they were certainly weaker at the time.

You don’t care, the threads aren’t all you though. DRK can handle ok, but it’s certainly the harder of the tanks when it comes to dealing with a snafu.

Certainly true, but guard rails have been implemented from every expansion up to SHB. From the button bloat hell of HW to the party responsibility in SB, it all had to change and fortunately it makes for smoother runs as a whole. Meanwhile in Extreme and onward, it still remains crazy but you only deal with the fight mechanics and DPS checks instead of all of that plus your job. The people who don’t learn get the boot, the ones who do can ascend.

If you and the minority want to rag on WAR then I guess you’re free to continue. Don’t be surprised when more threads pop off though.

I was there in Stormblood, and I was a new player, tanking the whole bit at that, who just started when Stormblood launched, but hey thanks for assuming I wasn't.

You could literally just merge Bloodwhetting into one ability again (Nascent Flash) and make it function exactly like it did in Shadowbringers and you would see less complaints, that's it.

I revel in chaos, and wiping really isn't a huge issue. We need to try again, so what? If the player is really being that much of a nuisance they aren't even doing the basic fundamentals of their role you can kick them in place of someone else.

I felt immensely more immersed and engaged with nearly every kit during Stormblood, even while leveling the entire way through. Job design was as its peak then. I want to be engaged with my job not be asleep at my keyboard. TP deserved to rot, though.

The threads aren't all me, and the people who complain about it don't represent everyone either. I rarely see anybody actually complain about it, just "yeah it's harder on DRK in dungeons because of the lack of sustain but when you learn how to use your defensives it's plenty powerful enough"

I'll take pre-nerf Orbonne anyday over the snorefest that is what they currently are. Alliance specific mechanics are sorely lacking.

[MikoRemi]

Snip

So was I, in fact my very first job was Marauder fancy that. Hard to tell with the way you're talking like a SHB player.

Besides being a pain in the ass in solo content again since it requires a partner, you'd get complaints since Bloodwhetting is out, it exists, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. It would undoubtedly make things worse, but let's assume it's just like normal in dungeons. Ok then who cares, why waste the time to revert it then. The only complaints I hear either way are just portions of the forums, nobody else asks for WAR nerfs.

Good for you, if I'm gonna repeat content over and over for leveling or otherwise, I'd rather not waste mine or anyone else's time when running content. Considerations for work and school and all that jazz. Unfortunately the majority of the playerbase don't have that mentality so we get some bad runs. You can also only kick so much until you get a group of friends that fight back against the kick, so good luck with that especially with most players not paying attention to others much. Time wasted is time wasted at the end of the day.

The idea was great, but the execution unfortunately lead to player responsibility to manage aggro, MP, TP and all that jazz which if you are indeed a SB player, you cannot tell me with a straight face that people were doing that the majority of the time. Most players can't even handle using Diversion let alone any actual "complicated" buttons.

Literally just the front page has a fair amount of DRK posts. Yes you could make DRK's defensives work ok because it's a dungeon at the end of the day, but besides the sustain well pull back to Dark Mind once more. In an age where Addle can mitigate both physical and magical damage, PLD can block magic with their shield(used to not), and most tanks can mitigate all damage, why does DRK have to be the magic tank again?

Considering how bad people do in the latest raid when it's relatively simple, I'd rather not. If I want that kind of content I'll get in the next "Eureka" because me and the others will know what were signing up for. If the players would up themselves then I'm sure we would've kept to the SB design, but you can see why that's not the case, and as we both know, there's no depths people won't sink down to. Just that by SHB and EW, that hasn't been nearly as much of a problem with the new guard rails. Not everything from the old days was amazing and unless the playerbase actively try to improve themselves on a major scale, I'll at least keep WAR how it is since adjustments could be done to actual problem jobs, and that way I can mitigate the problems there are with performance.

[Zairava]

Besides being a pain in the ass in solo content again since it requires a partner, you'd get complaints since Bloodwhetting is out, it exists, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. It would undoubtedly make things worse, but let's assume it's just like normal in dungeons. Ok then who cares, why waste the time to revert it then. The only complaints I hear either way are just portions of the forums, nobody else asks for WAR nerfs.

I'm referring to after they made it so you could use Nascent Flash without a partner, it was near universally agreed that it should've been usable by yourself from the get-go.

You aren't going to see much because the vast majority of people: a)Are silent and will leave or stay without providing thoughts b) don't care and just play it to play it

Good for you, if I'm gonna repeat content over and over for leveling or otherwise, I'd rather not waste mine or anyone else's time when running content. Considerations for work and school and all that jazz. Unfortunately the majority of the playerbase don't have that mentality so we get some bad runs. You can also only kick so much until you get a group of friends that fight back against the kick, so good luck with that especially with most players not paying attention to others much. Time wasted is time wasted at the end of the day.

I don't know if you thought I meant just to do it to anybody underperforming but that isn't what I meant. I was talking about people griefing the party and refusing to actually being a detriment.

The idea was great, but the execution unfortunately lead to player responsibility to manage aggro, MP, TP and all that jazz which if you are indeed a SB player, you cannot tell me with a straight face that people were doing that the majority of the time. Most players can't even handle using Diversion let alone any actual "complicated" buttons.

Aggro Management is controversial, I enjoyed it personally but I doubt they'd ever try to revamp it. I will repeat that TP deserves to stay in the grave, but I remember seeing that actively, people would have macro's for requesting MP/TP. They weren't complicated they quite literally explained themselves, Mana Shift really did not have any good reason to be removed.

Literally just the front page has a fair amount of DRK posts. Yes you could make DRK's defensives work ok because it's a dungeon at the end of the day, but besides the sustain well pull back to Dark Mind once more. In an age where Addle can mitigate both physical and magical damage, PLD can block magic with their shield(used to not), and most tanks can mitigate all damage, why does DRK have to be the magic tank again?

Again, could just slap 10% flat mit on Dark Mind or something of the sort.

Again part 2: Because that's Dark Knight's niche. Remove that and you're homogenizing it further.

Unfortunately in the attempt to keep jobs "unique", people want to keep some of the associated negatives while trying to hurt the other jobs that are doing fine. Bit of a lost cause here I'm afraid.

I do want DRK to get better though, and at least we have some people with stronger voices outside the forums who will give DRK a little boost without tearing down anyone else. It's how it is when people aren't used to games that offer nerfs like candy on Halloween and don't understand how it not only hurts but tends to not end after the first touch. Let's hope by Dawntrail that there will be some good upcoming abilities!

If you consider me actually needing to monitor my defensives and put some slight amount of effort into surviving, thus being more engaged in my kit "Negative", then yeah sure I guess. I'd like to have the healer need to heal me, because, ya know, they're a healer.

If you're going to give me some sort of sustain on DRK, make it like Death Strike on WoW. While I'm not entirely for merging Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain, they could do it with that in mind.

I rarely call for nerfs to anything, but WAR's dungeon sustain is so powerful it actively hinders the enjoyment of the job for me, so yeah, I'm going to put my voice in there to revert it to Shadowbringers. (and since the clarification was needed just before, AFTER they made it so that you could use it without a partner.)

[Shurrikhan]

And again you're simply boiling it down to technicalities. Yes, you do 200 potency per target, but it doesn't change the effective damage output increasing the more targets you put up.

Except the coefficient is oceans apart. Imagine if Fell Cleave hit every enemy nearby for the same potency as it does to its current only target. Would you assume that is balanced?

No? Because it does almost 3x the damage of the AoE?

Then why would you assume that (getting n times your single-target [not your AoE] healing potency per target) is balanced for Bloodwhetting?

Yes, Bloodwhetting is not unique in scaling flatly per target, since Abyssal Drain does the same, but there's that difference again: Abyssal Drain totals 200 potency of healing per enemy, while Bloodwhetting totals to 1600 potency of healing per enemy. And Abyssal Drain is a 1-minute CD, while Bloodwhetting is just a 25-second CD.

200. Versus 1600. 60-second CD. Versus a 25s CD.

Now consider what Bloodwhetting would look like if its AoE scaling functioned more like attacks, wherein total potency dealt does not increase linearly because you have to sacrifice potency per target in order to scale further:

Rather than 1600|3200|4800|6400|8000 total healing over 1|2|3|4|5 targets, you'd instead be doing ~1600|2000|2400|2800|3200, resulting in a curve that can actually be simultaneously appropriate both for ST and AoE.

So was I, in fact my very first job was Marauder fancy that. Hard to tell with the way you're talking like a SHB player.

Besides being a pain in the ass in solo content again since it requires a partner

Nascent Flash did not require a partner for most of Shadowbringers.

Nascent Flash no longer being usable on self came only after they wasted the second button by making Nascent Flash identical to Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting (instead of having a pure mitigation tool (Raw Intuition) usable on self and distinct and separate healing-from-damage-dealt tool that can be used on self or others).


...And why are you dismissing people for "talking like a ShB player" when they're noting things as far back as Stormblood, let alone while you can't remember the content of the previous expansion...?

[Shurrikhan]

I want you to explain to me, in detail, just exactly how Bloodwhetting being made per use or...

To be fair, having it be a single flat heal per affected action (i.e., regardless of total damage dealt) would also be a poor choice, since it would likely then slightly underperform relative to Holy Shelltron and Heart of Corundum in AoE situations.

The best way to handle it really is just to return it to healing for a portion of damage dealt. In that way it can balance itself simultaneously for AoE and ST situations, instead of attempting to balance itself for ST and having absurdly high (ST_tuning_point_x_target_count) or increasingly low (ST_tuning_point_only) output.

[Zairava]

To be fair, having it be a single flat heal per affected action (i.e., regardless of total damage dealt) would also be a poor choice, since it would likely then slightly underperform relative to Holy Shelltron and Heart of Corundum in AoE situations.

The best way to handle it really is just to return it to healing for a portion of damage dealt. In that way it can balance itself simultaneously for AoE and ST situations, instead of attempting to balance itself for ST and having absurdly high (ST_tuning_point_x_target_count) or increasingly low (ST_tuning_point_only) output.

I can agree with that, healing isn't mitigation after all. Shadowbringer's Nascent Flash is the way. It's the only true path to having the medium I feel. Especially since you can time it with infuriate when it comes off cooldown or save that charge for when your health gets on the lower end, (there's also the inverse, saving NF for your infuriate charge if possible).

Out of curiosity, do we know what the percentage was for the lifeleech on NF during Shadowbringers? If I had to take a wild crack at it, would 40-60% of damage dealt be reasonable? if we're to take my 9k from the 2 pages prior, that should land it to around 3.6k(40%)-5.4k(60%) per hit, non crits of course.