What would a new tank even contribute at this point

[Thurmnmurmn]

you dont need dps meters to calculate damage, you can do it with a spreadsheet and calculator, thats how YoshiP does it. theres also the decently reliable in game agro meter that shows 1-8 in agro. its not fool proof but its good enough. just because somebody knows your job does bad dps doesnt mean theyre using ACT



i literally had to became a rpr main because of it happening on chaos PF

because exclusion isnt incentive its an ultimatum

Let's be honest. Who actually calculates damage via the battle log XD.
And the only thing the aggro meter tells you is who's doing more damage (for the most part) compared to others.

We experienced it differently, it happens. I still don't think it would be nearly as bad as you think it would be considering the % of players who play that are casual.

[ChrysOCE]

you dont need dps meters to calculate damage, you can do it with a spreadsheet and calculator, thats how YoshiP does it.

You don't honestly believe this, do you?

[CaedemSanguis]

the problem is not "X is better than Y" the problem is "X gameplay is very close to Y's gameplay"

meta is a thing for the top 0,1% players (week1 savages hard dps check (e8s/p8s) or HC speedkill)

[NekoMataMata]

dark knight is best in frontlines, the pve version needed nerfed as to not show favouritism

I mean DRK is the busiest tank though if you want to look at buttons and general activity during fights. It deserved to be the best tank outside of pvp.

WAR which is the easiest tank keeps getting buffed. It wasn't enough that you could swap Nascent Flash between party members throughout a fight. They had to buff shake it off, and the damage potencies.

I disagree with the general idea that the jobs have been homogenized to the point of being completely the same, but it might happen eventually at this rate. Their general process for balancing jobs and making them viable seems to be blind buffs currently.

[mallleable]

How I kinda see it at the moment is that there are two categories of tanks based on their rotation: knights and berserkers. GNB, and PLD seem to fall under the category of knights with their multiple combos, while DRK, and WAR are berserkers focusing on spamming heavy hitting attacks. So a fifth tank could fall under one of these categories or start a new one. I think a tank that focuses on procing parts of their rotation by using skills at the right time while taking might be fun.

[Rithy255]

I think this is just a issue with how the game "balances" things.

What's the point of uniqueness and class identity when you can make Jobs the same and perform basically the same, DPS can hide from this a bit more with different rotations and theirs very few where actually making a "choice" in class matters (maybe like caster?), The feeling that your job brings something new to the table as a tank/healer has been lost, even with PLD in shb it was a very stand out OT that had utility (Personally I like PLD being a good MT design wise, but I think this is a good example), DRK was a awesome defensive powerhouse but now everyone has their own mit like TBN. I think SHB did this better but also should have been improved on, instead of doubling down on the design of "make everything simple"

Personally I view this as a sort of "balancing act" as you 1. want jobs to feel unique but 2. you want them to all be viable, to the extent where they don't get shut out for picking a certain class. Personally I'd prefer the game to lean into more diversity even at the expense of sometimes a job feeling a bit more weak, aslong as they make sure a job isn't falling behind to useless status I think it's fine, they should be looking to Buff a jobs upsides (or failing to do so, look at why a jobs upsides isn't useful) instead of just buffing their downsides to fit into another job's design, then that job complains they don't have "x, y and z"

EW has been the worst in terms of job design in general, I think SHB hit a good spot but in general should have reverted back in some directions to what storm blood had (I think somewhere in the middle of SHB/SB would have generally been amazing for job design) EW's design is really just... so sanitised? at this point it feels so boring even for a lot of casual players which actually get effected heavily by boring job design, as maximising their job was a core aspect of replay ability.

I think tanks are just a product of the job design team really not knowing how to work Tanks/Healers into the game, DPS are so easy to make them "semi unique" but with tanks and healers their needs to be more drawbacks and upsides outside of rotation.

[fulminating]

I mean DRK is the busiest tank though if you want to look at buttons and general activity during fights. It deserved to be the best tank outside of pvp.

WAR which is the easiest tank keeps getting buffed. It wasn't enough that you could swap Nascent Flash between party members throughout a fight. They had to buff shake it off, and the damage potencies.

I disagree with the general idea that the jobs have been homogenized to the point of being completely the same, but it might happen eventually at this rate. Their general process for balancing jobs and making them viable seems to be blind buffs currently.

DRK is very busy for 20 seconds every 2 minutes and mainly just not overcapping for the other 100. GNB is more consistently busy, old PLD more challenging. I don't really buy your argument - ninja, machinist and bard are all high apm red jobs with blm bringing up the rear. I'm pretty sure summoner's also super low, but difficulty and complexity aren't intrinsically linked. Or you could look at blue mage, which similarly has a very busy opener and near-healer rotation outside of it. BLU's damage suffers over longer periods because of this.

Where would you rank current PLD with the other tanks? The only challenging part to it I can see is remembering to use goring blade now that it's detached from everything.
If there weren't so many bleed-heavy or multihit/back to back raidwides having pld+war wouldn't have sucked so much. This could have been addressed with fight design alterations rather than a buff to both. The potency buffs to all the non-DRK tanks were probably justified given the state of tank damage prior to them - changing shadowbringer to be a GCD or single charge would probably have brought DRK more in line with the others without having the damage spiral upwards quite as much. There's also the question of whether you believe dark knight should be rewarded for showing up essentially, now that buff window alignment is not only expected but nearly built in to the party rotations. It doesn't seem right for DRK to be high on both a and r dps metrics, but I'm not really sure how that could be addressed or balanced satisfactorily without a rework.

[Reimmi]

What would a new anything even contribute at this point

hopefully they add some job identity back to the game without risking wow levels of job exclusion

I'd take that if it meant every class was unique tbh.

[Reimmi]

untill your main is the one effected

I only do savage with friends so this wouldn't affect me.
I also have way more confidence in the dev team here to balance damage numbers to not be 30% variance like wow lol

[Absurdity]

I doubt it would be so bad that you would get excluded from party finder. I played WHM in Alphascape pugs just fine, despite the job being objectively terrible compared to AST and SCH.

But if we want to diversify job design we would have to inevitably change up the fight design as well, if the mechanics were less scripted and the damage profile less predictable you might actually get some value out of jobs that bring less DPS but more mitigation or support.

As long as the fight design stays the way it is people would absolutely complain about their job doing worse DPS than job X in the same category, because right now DPS is all that matters at the end of the day.

Just look at tanks, sure you could have a tank that is better than any other when it comes to mitigating damage in exchange for mediocre dps.
But if you know that busters happen exactly every 60 seconds and every tank is designed to be able to survive those every 60 seconds then it doesn't matter by how much you survive, just that you do.