If Healers had Tank rotations, what would they be?

[Zarkovitch]

Fellcleaveand then flower cleave baby!

[SargeTheSeagull]

I literally made this thread, which you replied to, like three months ago.

[Rithy255]

Healers shouldn't have "tank rotations" they should have more something similar to dps caster but easy (so basically procs, or more DOT's like old smn, ect).

I don't think a melee-light (aka current tanks) rotation would suit Healers personally
EDIT: To add what I'd do about "dps on healers"
WHM - Give White mage a Areo proc chance while their DOT is ticking, Make their cast times longer like BLM (It should be hard to weave on whm like shb, they can move using lillies).
SCH - Add like a extra damage over time skill that's shorter, Keep energy drain as a interesting dps optimisation.
ASTRO - Just improve cards it doesn't need a rotation lol.
SGE - maybe give it something more like a "rotation" for those who would enjoy that, but I don't think standard melee rotations is the way to make healers interesting.

[Renathras]

People keep bringing up "healers should have rotations like tanks" and shoot down that they effectively have something very similar to WAR.

It doesn't matter what was 3 months ago, considering it came up in conversation AGAIN.

I was just curious what that looked like. I suspect it's something people say without really thinking about it, since if we gave healers WAR-level rotations, the people suggesting it would probably not find it appealing. I was thinking if we laid it out, people might realize that and reconsider what they're advocating for.

I could be wrong, but I suspect people realized that when thinking about the question, hence the antagonistic replies.

But for my part, I was wondering what it would be.

I'd gladly trade away DoTs for a simple 1-2-3 rotation and a 1-2 AOE rotation. That'd be fine by me.

People come up with things like BLM, but BLM is NOTHING like Tank rotations.

[ty_taurus]

People keep bringing up "healers should have rotations like tanks" and shoot down that they effectively have something very similar to WAR.

It doesn't matter what was 3 months ago, considering it came up in conversation AGAIN.

I was just curious what that looked like. I suspect it's something people say without really thinking about it, since if we gave healers WAR-level rotations, the people suggesting it would probably not find it appealing. I was thinking if we laid it out, people might realize that and reconsider what they're advocating for.

I could be wrong, but I suspect people realized that when thinking about the question, hence the antagonistic replies.

But for my part, I was wondering what it would be.

I'd gladly trade away DoTs for a simple 1-2-3 rotation and a 1-2 AOE rotation. That'd be fine by me.

People come up with things like BLM, but BLM is NOTHING like Tank rotations.

What I have said previously is that healers should have DPS tools that are on the same level as the tanks respective to different tanks. That is not suggesting that they have the same exact rotation, i.e. not having a 1-2-3 combo because no caster has a 1-2-3 combo, and healers, if anything, are less suited for such a system than DPS casters. What I'm referring to is general complexity, not literal rotation.

[Renathras]

What I have said previously...

I mean, it would be easy to make spells with 1-2-3 combos. They ARE instant, but Crimson Cyclone and Crimson Strike are both GCDs, tagged as "Spell", and a combo. Mountain Buster is an oGCD but has a similar effect. Verholy/Flare, Scorch, and Resolution are all Spell flagged and work as a combo. Scorch and Resolution both have the "Combo Action" tag in their descriptions as well.

It doesn't take a lot to shift from that to an actual 1-2-3 combo in terms of game mechanics.

.

I think the point I'm making here is, I don't think you guys want "same level as the tanks". I think you want a higher level than WAR and SMN and something more akin to RDM or DNC (a Job I know you really like). But those are two very different statements, which leads to unnecessary disagreement because of confusion. That is, if you aren't saying what you actually want, then it's going to lead to people like me holding you to it and you being upset that you're being held to something you don't mean.

When someone says "like the tanks", I'm thinking 1-2-3 rotation (which is easier than DoT tracking, so actually easier than healers currently are, imo), a 1 min buff ability (which WHM has outright with PoM already), a long-ish CD damage ability (like Primal Rend or Confetior) (which WHM has outright with Misery already and SGE has with Plegma), and an oGCD or two to weave (which WHM has outright already with Assize).

It's why I've - several times now - listed out WAR and WHM abilities side by side and noted that other than the 1-2- (single target), 1- (AOE), and having two separate buttons for its single target vs AOE oGCD (but since they share a CD, I don't consider that an increase in complexity) that WAR has, that WHM already has an overall rotation very similar to WAR in terms of complexity, the only wrinkle is that WAR interacts more directly with its gauge for damage...but it's not a complex interaction (Fell Cleave spam with a TINY bit of nuance to Infuriate).

But this is because I'm working on the assumption that when people say they want healers to have rotations like the tanks, that it means WAR is a viable tank under that scenario. And when someone says similar complexity, it's a pretty similar argument since someone might point out that some healer mechanics are more complex than what respective tanks have (again, DoTs).

When the main distinction between them is the 1-2-3, is it surprising I might interpret your argument that way?

.

And the thing is...I wouldn't mind that. I'd LOVE to trade in a DoT for a 1-2- combo. WAR's Storm's Path is so easy to track and upkeep compared to DoTs, it's not even funny.

.

EDIT:

Anyway, the point isn't to be antagonistic.

It's just that I think we're essentially there already. It's also why, sadly, I don't think that's what people actually WANT when they ask for it. I say sadly, because I wouldn't mind that much.

[ForsakenRoe]

It's why I've - several times now - listed out WAR and WHM abilities side by side and noted that other than the 1-2- (single target), 1- (AOE), and having two separate buttons for its single target vs AOE oGCD (but since they share a CD, I don't consider that an increase in complexity) that WAR has, that WHM already has an overall rotation very similar to WAR in terms of complexity, the only wrinkle is that WAR interacts more directly with its gauge for damage...but it's not a complex interaction (Fell Cleave spam with a TINY bit of nuance to Infuriate).

Yeh, apart from such things as how you compare IR (and it's 3 FCs)/Primal Rend to prepping a Misery with Solace/Rapture. Except, unlike Solace/Rapture, that FC spam has the 'tiny' nuance of reducing Infuriate's CD. And Primal Rend has an animation lock/gapclose so you have to consider mechanics and your positioning. And you can shift it forward to before the FCs if needed to better work around said issues. The +15s for your Eye buff on IR needs to be considered so you don't overcap by accident (it gives enough time for 2 full 123 combos). There's more depth to WAR than you first think there is, and while SE seems to be trying their damn hardest to remove it all 'for accessibility' or whatever reason they've got, it's still more than WHM has. Come 7.0 though you might be correct, though that'd be because WAR got more braindead and dropped to WHM's level, not 'because it's already at WHM's level'

[ty_taurus]

I think the point I'm making here is, I don't think you guys want "same level as the tanks". I think you want a higher level than WAR and SMN and something more akin to RDM or DNC (a Job I know you really like). But those are two very different statements, which leads to unnecessary disagreement because of confusion. That is, if you aren't saying what you actually want, then it's going to lead to people like me holding you to it and you being upset that you're being held to something you don't mean.

You could always just take me at my word instead of tell me what I'm saying is not what I want and what I actually want is what you think I want. No? Okay then, I'll go cry in a corner.

[BRVV]

Healers would get a 1-2-3 for single enemies and a 1-2 for groups

At least more than currently. At least combos.

[ty_taurus]

Healers would get a 1-2-3 for single enemies and a 1-2 for groups

At least more than currently. At least combos.

Yay... A 1-2-3 Combo. The thought of that simply ferments my yeast.