If Healers had Tank rotations, what would they be?

[Renathras]

Suppose for the sake of argument that we wanted to make each Healer Job have a level of DPS (ignoring healing/tanking for the time being) comparable to each of the Tanks, and again for the sake of argument, using these pairings, what would they be?

WHM = WAR
SCH = PLD
AST = DRK
SGE = GNB

WAR and WHM have comparable abilities for the most part with mild exceptions:

Heavy Swing-Maim-Storm's Path: Glare
-Storm's Eye: Dia
Overpower/Mithril Tempest: Holy
Upheval/Orogeny: Assize
Inner Release: Presence of Mind
Infuriate: Thin Air (or Swiftcast)
Fell Cleave/Decimate: Solace/Rapture
Primal Rend: Misery

The only one of those that's at all a "stretch" is Fell cleave vs Solace/Rapture, but WHM is a healer while WAR is not (WAR doesn't have any tanking GCDs), and the only thing missing there is WHM doesn't have a three charge oGCD to burn where WAR has Onslaught, and WHM doesn't have a ranged instant that generates healing like WAR has Tomahawk as an instant ranged GCD attack that generates threat. Overall, that's pretty comparable considering WAR has overall less buttons than WHM does, despite splitting "Assize" into two parts (Onslaught and Orogeny share a CD) and that WAR has a 1-2- single target and a 1-2 AOE.

To make them more direct copies, the following changes would be done. Note changes marked with an * are ones I don't think are necessary since they don't actually increase complexity much or at all.

1) * Adding a 1-2-3 combo for Glare. Though it's not entirely certain what spells you'd use since you'd need both low and high levels for them. (single target non-branching combos are generally button bloat that have no actually skill increase/expression to them)

2) * Adding a 1-2 combo for Holy. (AOE combos are generally button bloat that have almost no skill increase whatsoever)

3) * Making Dia branch from the 1-2 combo AND only be usable on a single target. Or, alternatively, removing the DoT aspect and making it a damage buff (the later is actually easier to track than DoTs, so this is a case where WAR and WHM are comparable now in the sense of Storm's Eye requiring a bit more prep work but current Dia being a higher skill cap)

4) * Making Assize for AOE and something (Fluid Aura?) for single target. (In practice, you only use Upheval for single targets and Orogony for AOE, so unless you have your hotbar set up weird, this is not a skill/complexity increase)

5) * Giving WHM a gauge mechanic with a attack GCD spender (Fell Cleave). ARGUABLY this is what Solace/Rapture (and to a point, Misery) are, since WAR doesn't have to interrupt GCDs to use tanking abilities (they're all oGCDs) and these count as GCD "pseudo oGCDs" for WHM. So I'm not sure this change for increased complexity makes sense to do, since locking WHM into a resource GCD damage set they need to burn in the burst window could cause issues with healing. Personally, I think Solace/Rapture captures this mechanic, with the only issue being you can't just spam the heck out of them back to back. But then again, Fell Cleave has a limit, it's just high (5). So this one I think is already pretty good as-is given the alternatives become a lot more janky.

6) * Making Misery trigger from Presence of Mind. This change...I honestly think would be stupid. I only place it here for the sake of completeness, but...I think it's stupid in the sense I think present Lilies works much better.

7) * Making Thin Air also allow a Lily use without consuming a Lily charge, and boosting the effect. This would make it more comparable to Infuriate. Though you get into weirdness with Misery and burst windows unless you also made it where that use of the spell didn't nourish the Blood Lily, which would be kind of confusing. But again, here for the sake of completeness.

...and I just put an asterisk by everything. <_< Well, that wasn't intentional, but I do consider the two more or less comparable. Making Cure 1 and Medica 2 upgrade into their 2 versions and giving WHM a 1-2-3 combo, making Dia a -4 branch but also making it a self-buff instead of a DoT would basically be the only change really needed to make WHM and WAR's damage kits pretty much comparable to each other, but this would be a side-grade in terms of skill, not an increase...hm.

ANYway, what about the other Jobs?

You may raise points with the above if you like, but please do so as an aside; what I'm really curious about is how to do the others. SCH as a parallel to PLD's complexity, AST to DRK's, and SGE to GNB's. Since those aren't really extant right now (unlike WHM which is kinda comparable to WAR) since...well...ALL of the Healer Jobs right now are basically in WAR territory.

NOTE:

Some Tank damage has minor contributions to tanking (e.g. GNB's -2 generating a heal and a barrier, WAR/DRK's -3 and PLD's HS giving healing, etc), so some "this also heals" is fine. But we're not talking about the healing kit GCDs (Cure/Adlo/etc) or oGCDs (Tetra/Lustrate/Holos/etc) here. JUST the DPS buttons.

[ForsakenRoe]

Wasn't this thread already made like a couple months back?

Also why is it WAR-WHM, but then all the others are Healer-Tank ordered

[ASkellington]

Better question is why is DRK paired with AST?

Of all the tanks PLD seems to be the most support oriented so I'd pair them together.

With that nitpick out the way, what kind of rotations are we looking at here - 1:1 or healer style rotations using the tanks as a base?

[fulminating]

Optimally a dps does damage and lines up raid buffs with big cds.
Optimally a tank uses cooldowns to make damage smaller, positions the boss swaps with the cotank and/or facilitates ignoring mechanics with invulns.
Optimally a healer heals as little as possible while ensuring avoidable deaths don’t occur.

This being said, I’m not sure I necessarily like the idea of a tank-style rotation. Losing gcd heals cuts away at the “ideal” to try and attain in exchange for more downtime engagement. I also don’t know if it would be more sensible modelling these new downtime rotations on casters rather than tanks, if only because casters don’t have 123 combos. At the same time there is so much downtime that I agree something should be done to make it less dull.

I’d also model scholar on warrior rather than white mage because scholar has ties to marauder in the job quest stuff and the tank rotations are all a bit homogeneous. Something like a dot generation phase > dot detonation/extension burst, ruin 4 stacks as a proc from dot ticks. White mage if not modelled on 50blm could take after dark knight I guess - preserving the faster paced presence of mind and dull dull dull rest of the time. AST and pld could be a couple too, the atonements replaced with cards either on the gcd or tuned to not be overwhelmingly broken with that many so frequently. Happily this leaves the two I dislike most, both with the nebulous “dps” identity to pair up. I think a more flexible burst to take advantage of kardia and a guaranteed crit on sable sawn or whatever to guarantee critical healing there could be interesting. If I remember I’ll flesh this out a bit and if I don’t it’ll be an incomplete train of thought.

[Renathras]

Wasn't this thread already made like a couple months back?

Also why is it WAR-WHM, but then all the others are Healer-Tank ordered

They...aren't?

WHM/WAR - most straightforward of the Jobs (also one of two natural parings in ARR - WAR the damage sponge, WHM the throughput healer)
SCH/PLD - more complex with a stronger defensive lean to their abilities (the other natural paring in ARR - PLD and SCH could double down on mitigation and SCH's kit worked with PLD's more limited healing pool)
AST/DRK - relatively low-maintenance filler phase, high APM burst phase
SCH/GNB - in theory, the "damage focused" "healer/tank for DPS players" Jobs. Also both use "guns but not guns" weapons, but that's more just flavor.

Not sure we made this thread a while back or not, but the topic has come up again, and in this case, I'm strictly holding it to damage kits.

Better question is why is DRK paired with AST?

Of all the tanks PLD seems to be the most support oriented so I'd pair them together.

With that nitpick out the way, what kind of rotations are we looking at here - 1:1 or healer style rotations using the tanks as a base?

Because damage kits. Again, not talking healing, utility, etc. ONLY damage kits. (Though I suppose that would remove AST's Cards, but there's really not another one that's a good/better fit in terms of complexity...I dunno, just roll with it?)

I’d also model scholar on warrior rather than white mage because scholar has ties to marauder in the job quest stuff

Again, I'm talking DPS rotations, not lore connections. Several don't have any lore connections - PLD and WHM have no relation in lore. The only relation they ever had was in game mechanics (when PLD could use CNJ abilites; it wasn't even a two-way street since WHM couldn't use GLD ones), and DRK/AST and GNB/SGE never had any such connections anyway.

I'm more thinking in terms of game mechanics/rotations for the purpose of this discussion.

Besides, considering how many people were upset at SCH being "dumbed down" in 5.0, could you imagine the complaints if it was made equal in difficulty to "the easiest braindead Tank/second easiest Job in the game"?

Also, I put "for the sake of argument" in italics twice.

We can try a different thought experiment with different combinations later once we've done the initial wave. Fair enough?

[ForsakenRoe]

WAR = WHM
SCH = PLD
AST = DRK
SGE = GNB

I'm not on about whatever logic you've assigned to why each pairing has to be the way it is, that's subjective stuff. What is objective, though, is that WAR is a tank listed on the left of the table, and then all the other tanks are on the right, I asked why and you went off on a completely unrelated tangent

[Renathras]

I'm not on about whatever logic you've assigned to why each pairing has to be the way it is, that's subjective stuff. What is objective, though, is that WAR is a tank listed on the left of the table, and then all the other tanks are on the right, I asked why and you went off on a completely unrelated tangent

Oh, lol

English language.

I thought you meant "ordered" as in "when they released" (in terms of the game's expansions). WHM/WAR/PLD were 1.X, SCH 2.0, DRK/AST 3.0, and GNB/SGE 5.0/6.0. I thought that was the order you were referring to.

I'll edit the OP to fix that for the OCD inclined (I'm one, so I understand - there was no reason, it was probably just my dyslexia acting up)

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Anyway, I'm still waiting for at least one person to address the OP and to participate in the topic of the thread itself.

People keep saying healers should have DPS kits on par with Tanks, which implies the Tanks as they currently stand are acceptable enough.

So I'm asking what that would look like.

If WHM had a 1-2-3 core rotation, a self-buff on a -4, a 1-2 AOE rotation, etc, would that be sufficient? I might be able to just outright do that...

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WHM as WAR:

All spells listed below are instant casts (WAR's are)

Aero I, II, III,... - Water I, II, III,... - Stone I, II, III,...
Each spell has a given potency, and each boosts the potency of the next one in a proper chain. For example, Aero would have a "Empowered Water" effect. Water would have an Additional Effect of Empowered Water doing additional damage, generating 10 of a resource, and granting "Empowered Earth", which would likewise boost the Stone spell and have it generate 20 of the resource.

Banish I, II, III,...
The -4, can consume Empowered Earth to instead generate a 30 sec, stacking to 60 sec, damage buff for the WHM increasing damage (and healing?) dealt.

Glare I, II, III,... - Dia I, II, III,...
Same thing, AOE.

Holy I, II, III,...
Holy Cleave. Requires 50 units of the resource generated by the other combos. Give it a 25y range and make it single target.

Thin Air
Now generates 50 units of the resource, has two charges and a 40 sec CD.

Fluid Aura/Assize:
Single target and AOE versions of the same thing like Upheval/Orogeny. (Personally, I think this is stupid and I think it's stupid that WAR does this, too. Upheval should just upgrade to Orogeny and make it like Expacion.)

Presence of Mind
Now generates one Blood Lily allowing the casting of Afflatus Misery. The next 3x Holy will be critical direct hits and consume no resource to cast.

BETTER Fluid Aura:
20 sec CD, stacks to 3. This would be the Onslaught equivalent.

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That would be what WHM would look like if it was given WAR's damage suite.

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EDIT:

Glare having a cast where the white things just spread out over an area would be kind of amusing, honestly, and Dia's animation just being super-sized to have a 10y radius would make the visual effect work.

Alternatively, Banish could be the -2 AOE and Dia the -4 single target. Either way is fine.

You know what? I'm fine with this. It would require pruning some heals to keep to around the 29 ability mark (32 total when including Sprint, LB, Pot), but I don't mind playing WAR, so this would be fine.

[Renathras]

Hm...it occurs to me, could just do the same thing with SCH. Names slightly different, but same deal. Since people seem to prefer it, here is SCH as the WAR equivalent instead.

SCH as WAR

1-2-3 combo of Ruin, Bio, Broil

-4 that triggers the self-damage 30 sec stacking to 60 sec buff is Biolysis.

1-2 AOE combo of Miasma, Art of War

Fell Cleave is Fester.

Onslaught is Mumification (3 charges, etc etc).

Tomahawk is Bane.

Upheval/Orogeny is Energy Drain/Siphon.

Primal Rend is...hm...Shadow Flare? (Running out of names here...)

Basically just take the WAR kit and change the names, pair them with SCH animations, and good to go. Honestly, I'd be fine with this. No DoTs, of course. WAR and SMN don't have DoTs. So these would be the spell names and visual effects, but of course, no DoTs, and all spells are instant cast, just like WAR.

.

Now, with that done, what would WHM looking like PLD (something several people pitched) look like?

[OgruMogru]

Sch/War makes more sense as they are paired together in the lore also

[Kabooa]

Each healer would be given a variant of "Does 25% more damage" and have two OGCDs they push in that window, otherwise nothing else really changes.