DRK - AST/AST/AST - The frontline meta

[Valence]

Since it can't happen in CC, do buffs from identical LBs stack? I'd assume not since standard buffs?

[Astralrisk]

Since it can't happen in CC, do buffs from identical LBs stack? I'd assume not since standard buffs?

I believe least debuffs like Hysteria and Charmed can't stack, but as for buffs I imagine they wouldn't. But I never actually seen these buffs stack at all, or a scenario where they would.

[AnotherPerson]

I believe least debuffs like Hysteria and Charmed can't stack, but as for buffs I imagine they wouldn't. But I never actually seen these buffs stack at all, or a scenario where they would.

Correct, buffs of the same kind do not stack, but they can get overwritten.

Having more ASTs in this scenario actually makes it worse because card effects overwrite each other instead of stacking. The amount of coordination required drops significantly because they all need to do the same thing (so it can be more of a follow-the-leader-and-turn-your-brain-off), but their maximum potential in the party is significantly reduced as a result due to the nature of how buffs and debuffs are applied. You can only have Balance or Arrow or Bole active, and never all at the same time. That means the more ASTs you have, the more card buffs that lose usefulness (so the maximum amount of extra DPS they can give to the party to any particular target drops a lot than if there was another job that did big burst damage). The same applies to their LB and Macrocosmos healing buff/aspected shield buff/aspected regen buff, it can't be stacked.

As far as AST's case, they just become one-trick ponies and incredibly weak after the initial burst as their sustain dps is incredibly low compared to a party with 8 diverse set of jobs. If players plays around their burst window, then it becomes much easier to turn the tide (because ASTs have nothing left after their burst, unlike other sustain dps jobs). Having more class diversity allows more flexibility in handling different situations with various tactics to prevent such a big weakness. Having 8 of the same classes mean their strengths and weaknesses become super pronounced as they all have the same kit perks, but due to the nature of buffs/debuffs in FFXIV being able to overlap and overwrite (with some debuffs just being resisted while the current debuff is still active - ex: Trying to stun a stunned enemy doesn't renew the stun), they get bigger diminishing returns in their gameplay.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

That has to be one of the worst ideas of job design "compensation" I've seen in a while. This is more of the equivalent of chopping someone off at the knees and telling them to cheer up because they still have their arms.

That has to be one of the worst ideas of job design "compensation" I've seen in a while. This is more of the equivalent of chopping someone off at the knees and telling them to cheer up because they still have their arms.

Frankly, I'm not obliged to state why, (although I frequently do) stated that I think something is a poor idea isn't "disparaging a post". I'm not required to state why, if someone asks me why that's another matter.

Hi, I think you need to take a step back and actually check what you wrote because to me it looks like you think that the "one of the worst ideas of job design 'compensation'" was my personal idea let alone suggestion. It was not - it was what I expect the devs to do.

I would not mind AST losing 4000 damage on Macrocosmos, assuming it is accordingly compensated. Given the oGCD nature, it would still be part of its' burst at 8000 base damage following a Gravity II Dualcast.

To address the elephant in the room though - at 15y radius, 12000 damage alone would be insanely strong, but it also comes with Microcosmos' damage consolidation to heal. Given the heal part is part of being a Healer, it would make no sense to reduce the radius. Instead, a reduction in damage makes more sense.

Compensation besides the "I expect SE to do this" could be:
- Gravity II + Dualcast getting the 4000 damage (2000 each).
- Some dualcast adjustments like using Macro granting 66-100% of a charge of Dualcast
- Boosting the heal capacity of Macrocosmos
- Boosting the heal capacity of Aspected Benefic


...as you can see I got many ideas of what they could give AST to keep it strong without having to keep the 12000dmg 15y nuke that currently plagues FL. Maybe instead of just kneejerk reacting with "worst idea ever", refusing to elaborate unless "I" asked and generally acting with way too much aggression you could just ask for clarification or hell, discuss it with me.

[IDontPetLalas]

Hi, I think you need to take a step back and actually check what you wrote because to me it looks like you think that the "one of the worst ideas of job design 'compensation'" was my personal idea let alone suggestion. It was not - it was what I expect the devs to do.

I would not mind AST losing 4000 damage on Macrocosmos, assuming it is accordingly compensated. Given the oGCD nature, it would still be part of its' burst at 8000 base damage following a Gravity II Dualcast.

To address the elephant in the room though - at 15y radius, 12000 damage alone would be insanely strong, but it also comes with Microcosmos' damage consolidation to heal. Given the heal part is part of being a Healer, it would make no sense to reduce the radius. Instead, a reduction in damage makes more sense.

Compensation besides the "I expect SE to do this" could be:
- Gravity II + Dualcast getting the 4000 damage (2000 each).
- Some dualcast adjustments like using Macro granting 66-100% of a charge of Dualcast
- Boosting the heal capacity of Macrocosmos
- Boosting the heal capacity of Aspected Benefic


...as you can see I got many ideas of what they could give AST to keep it strong without having to keep the 12000dmg 15y nuke that currently plagues FL. Maybe instead of just kneejerk reacting with "worst idea ever", refusing to elaborate unless "I" asked and generally acting with way too much aggression you could just ask for clarification or hell, discuss it with me.

No, the origins of a bad idea doesn't really change whether it is good or not, now does it? and no, I don't view AST as a "plague", might want to take a look at some of the other jobs.

And no, the amount of detail that I want to add in a post is up to me, as is whether or not I want to continue in a thread. You're free to discount it if you feel that it's baseless, on the other hand I wouldn't be so fast to read aggression in my intent.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

No, the origins of a bad idea doesn't really change whether it is good or not, now does it? and no, I don't view AST as a "plague", might want to take a look at some of the other jobs.

And no, the amount of detail that I want to add in a post is up to me, as is whether or not I want to continue in a thread. You're free to discount it if you feel that it's baseless, on the other hand I wouldn't be so fast to read aggression in my intent.

Never claimed the idea to be good, only wanted to clarify that the idea is not what I want or think is good but rather what I expect them to do.

Fair enough on the latter part.

[Cidel]

The "Frontline meta" is basically "farm kills for Battle High off of the ignorant masses who don't know how or when to a) Guard, b) Identify oncoming threats, c) Focus targets 1st that don't have their finger over a 10-second invulnerability skill, d) stay with their team, and sometimes e) utilize Recuperate (sad, but I see it regularly)."

The thing is, DRK's pull-in+salted earth (and LB) is an extremely effective way to take advantage of all of those traits. The reason its so effective is because most people queuing Frontlines:

1) Don't know how to identify a DRK initiating a pull-in (or CC them) and their 1st instict is to run away- not Guard (which causes them to die to any and all follow-ups),
2) Do not understand the concept of tanks and melee having larger defense modifiers than ranged dps and healers, and tend to fixate on whatever happens to be closest/easier to Tab target even if it's literally the hardest target they could pick to kill.
3) Do not bother changing targets and will often continue to stubbornly spam their keys on even DRKs and PLDs; who usually (and in the case of DRKs, almost certainly) are prepared to burn their LB- effectively making them unkillable for 10 seconds, causing them to waste precious burst phases and LBs. And some people still refuse to stop beating on invincible targets.

In addition to those, DRK happens to be the only job in most Frontlines scenarios that literally shapes the flow of any given engagement. The pull-in is deceptively large and can grab an unnaturally large group of people into a concentrated spot; which in turn makes it easy for their entire team to use their AoE toolkit and be guaranteed a large number of kills and assists, and having their LB as a follow-up not only makes them essentially immune to repercussions, but in itself does respectable AoE damage which is only compounded if the DRK has high levels of Battle High.

Even though there exists specific counterplays to DRK shenanigans, they're often temporary and requires individuals saving their entire CC kits specifically to delay one DRK for a couple seconds. Indeed, the best way to deal with them is reacting with Guard and crawling away, but WAR and DNC/RPR wingmen are uncommon, but not unheard of. Of course, this is asking too much of most casual Frontline participants; after all, these are some of the same people who routinely accumulate Vuln stacks or even repeatedly die to old, routine PvE content- so expecting them to react accordingly to dynamic PvP situations is a stretch. That's not to say Frontlines should continuously be dumbed down for them, but the fact that one job can impose entire teams to basically expend their limited Guard resource or die... That's almost about as unhealthy as PLDs basically making captures uninterruptable with Guardian.

As for ASTs; I mean, yeah, coordinated Macrocosmos can be lethal. The stacking of many AoEs are lethal; even SCHs. The thing about ASTs is they are squishy; you have a few attentive players with ranged options and you can heavily dissuade or even kill an AST running up to try and use it. The problem is your average Frontliner won't. They'll see the DRK running in (or not, maybe they suck), maybe with a WAR or two, and decide that's what they'll blow their 0 Battle High burst on, and keep going even after the DRK pops Eventide... Your average person queuing Frontline is just not very savvy to these things, hence all the "lolPvP" sentiments and Twitch "I sleep" spam whenever there's a live letter addressing it, but when they actually set foot in PvP they make an absolute clown of themselves like someone joining an EX farm group without a clear or even looking at a guide 1st.

[brancinaed]

I have some ideas how to have a larger impact in games where there are lots of DRK/DRG/AST. Play Samurai or Reaper to counter this meta. Both these jobs absolutely crush it, but I see fewer of them recently.

Dark Knight and Dragoon both have so much AOE damage they have a hard time avoiding Hissatsu: Chiten. Samurai can shut down their battle highs so easily with smart use of Zantetsuken.

Reapers should aggressively Hell's Ingress into the back line and force healers back, to panic, or sometimes kill them while having the safety of Regress. Tenebrae Lemurum is such a good ultimate for causing disruption to forced engages. If aware enough to identify the engaging players Reaper can disrupt half of them with uncleansable CC which ruins engages.