Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[MikoRemi]

"Endwalker's changes to Skill X makes it broken in respect to A and less fun than previously the case in all other respects, with gameplay and balance implications that result in degradation of both role gameplay and WAR gameplay itself."

"But what of not-A, huh?! Is it broken there?"

"No, but that's not the poi--"

"If it's not broken (everywhere), then what are any of you coMplAinIng about?"

Real touching argument there. If were going to just pick on good ol’ WAR though, that’s not really good enough. Good to see it’s degenerated to this though.

[MikoRemi]

Snip

The problem is you can’t really change a skill other than PVP or PVE, you can’t make it different for dungeons and raids(ie; nerfed version for dungeons then normal for raids), so it’s a bit tricky to make sure it’s good in both, both do have to be considered. That’s the real rub because at the moment it’s great for both aspects which makes it a spectacular tool, and one that’d be sad to see overturned as some want to do.

It’s hard to have a selfish tank when they all need to bring something to the party though truthfully. GNB is the closest we get with the 20 second long No Mercy windows it has to fit everything into which makes it difficult to sustain at times, and that’s only bearable because it has some pretty crazy damage. All the tanks have a low skill floor though so that’s not the best measurement unfortunately.

You already touched upon the actual issue, if the dungeons would challenge that sustain then nobody would be complaining. Im fine with the dungeons being less of a facepull but I do worry after remembering the days of The Burn when it first released, or Bardam’s Mettle, but with updated kits we would probably not have a nightmarish time like that.

If you want an idea for DRK, Delirium used to give MP back whenever you were attacked, imagine if it gave back 50% of damage into HP, and maybe some MP(TBD), that way it makes it good for constant barrages as well as a big single target attack! And it would be a rather unique way to take the “suffering” of DRK and turn it into a cool button.

[Shurrikhan]

Real touching argument there. If were going to just pick on good ol’ WAR though, that’s not really good enough. Good to see it’s degenerated to this though.

Ffs. I don't like Bloodwhetting (or, Endwalker's changes to our on-demand) in no small part because of its impact on us, the Warriors. Our on demand is now not only less balanceable but also less fun.

[MikoRemi]

Ffs. I don't like Bloodwhetting (or, Endwalker's changes to our on-demand) in no small part because of its impact on us, the Warriors. Our on demand is now not only less balanceable but also less fun.

Much better.

It’s very much fun for me and many Warrior’s. It’s as common to find Warrior’s who hate their good kit as it is to find Healer’s who leave after seeing a Warrior in the party. It’s fine if you don’t like it I suppose but now were just getting into personal territory.

Harder to balance sure, but given the game came back from 1.0 I don’t doubt the team can pull miracles when they have time to do so. Time will tell with Dawntrail I suppose though. As it is, Warrior as it is now is a godsend to run around with, and the many PUG’s I find in DF and PF are more than happy to see me. If you’d rather stick with no sustain and good damage though then I guess you got Dark Knight available.

I will hope for the best for the other tanks, surely there’s more common ground to find than just tearing down a good job because it’s good. Elevate yourselves so everyone can have fun. Otherwise, I’ll see everyone in DT where if there’s no actual feedback, things will
just remain as it is now.

Man Mode baby.

[Shurrikhan]

I will hope for the best for the other tanks, surely there’s more common ground to find than just tearing down a good job because it’s good.

Here I'm sitting on a job that used to be my tank main but now bores the hell out of most of its veterans because a subset of its players couldn't be bothered to manage use of their gauge, costing us that part of complexity in mid-Stormblood and then again in Shadowbringers, and then they couldn't be bothered to bank resources for Nascent Flash, costing us even that and making our on-demand feel isolated, detached, and generally dull af.

Those changes haven't "elevated" WAR's kit. They've increasingly diminished it.

They've increasingly replaced engagement with failure-proofed "hurr-de-durr", and have then been taking every other kit down that same path of being shallowed out and/or brain-sanded.

And that's what you're calling "Man mode", while insisting everyone else should just "get on our [brain-smoothed] level"?

No. It's dogshit. And not everyone wants to have to smell it, let alone smell like it.

[MikoRemi]

I’ve had plenty of time to reflect on the Stormblood era, it wasn’t was glamorous as you and others love to make it out to be. I thought I missed stance dancing once upon a time or the overall party responsibility with role actions, but it was more of a mess that was countered by easy fights. I remember Suzaku being harder once, it actually wasn’t it was just the jobs.

Diminished and yet it’s going like a champ. Personal though, I get it.

They aren’t perfect with some jobs like Samurai with Kaiten, but they lowered the job difficulty and DPS while mechanics have gotten overall heftier in extreme and beyond, hence the bodycheck memes. It’s mostly evened out just gone about a different way. I’ve had to accept that over tike as well.

Being able to not get screwed over by a bad healer? Sure sounds like Man Mode to me with my juicy axe.

Personal though of course, if you don’t like it then that’s just a darn shame. But like BLM’s that can’t handle the rotation, they got SMN. Not everyone else wants to be lowered down in the tankard either so it’s a simple thing to reflect. Hope you’ll find your place in Eorzea~.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Here I'm sitting on a job that used to be my tank main but now bores the hell out of most of its veterans because a subset of its players couldn't be bothered to manage use of their gauge, costing us that part of complexity in mid-Stormblood and then again in Shadowbringers, and then they couldn't be bothered to bank resources for Nascent Flash, costing us even that and making our on-demand feel isolated, detached, and generally dull af.

Those changes haven't "elevated" WAR's kit. They've increasingly diminished it.

They've increasingly replaced engagement with failure-proofed "hurr-de-durr", and have then been taking every other kit down that same path of being shallowed out and/or brain-sanded.

And that's what you're calling "Man mode", while insisting everyone else should just "get on our [brain-smoothed] level"?

No. It's dogshit. And not everyone wants to have to smell it, let alone smell like it.

I lament the loss of 20 gauge cost on Upheaval & Onslaught, especially Onslaught. I also thought 4.1 WAR was the height of Warrior gameplay, to go into IR-Zerk with 90-100 gauge and doing your 6 fell cleaves and throw in a Storm's Path / Storm's Eye combo while throwing your 1 Upheaval and 2 Onslaught in was the peak of when I loved Warrior.

Now I can't even play Bloodrage Warrior because of crybabies demanding that Onslaught has to be the 3rd carbon copy of Plunge @2-3 stacks. Hope you are all happy being able to pull with your gapcloser or complaining that you are forced to use gapclosers in your burst window.

[Supersnow845]

They really need to remove endless stacks of free gap closers, plunge used to be one of DRK’s niches now of course to the surprise of nobody WAR has better plunge than actual plunge because WAR has to be the best at everything for some reason

This comes up often in the healer forums but do people actually enjoy playing classes that don’t have failstates, or the class plays itself for you what are you even doing, WAR not having a single downside to any of its skills is a big offender of this (though SGE, SMN and WHM are also notable offenders)

[Kabooa]

Now I can't even play Bloodrage Warrior because of crybabies demanding that Onslaught has to be the 3rd carbon copy of Plunge @2-3 stacks. Hope you are all happy being able to pull with your gapcloser or complaining that you are forced to use gapclosers in your burst window.

...

This didn't even occur to me. What a loss.

[Rithy255]

I lament the loss of 20 gauge cost on Upheaval & Onslaught, especially Onslaught. I also thought 4.1 WAR was the height of Warrior gameplay, to go into IR-Zerk with 90-100 gauge and doing your 6 fell cleaves and throw in a Storm's Path / Storm's Eye combo while throwing your 1 Upheaval and 2 Onslaught in was the peak of when I loved Warrior.

Now I can't even play Bloodrage Warrior because of crybabies demanding that Onslaught has to be the 3rd carbon copy of Plunge @2-3 stacks. Hope you are all happy being able to pull with your gapcloser or complaining that you are forced to use gapclosers in your burst window.

SHB warrior was cooler then ew war I loved how you had two completely different defences on a shared CD (where their would be different situational uses for both). Gauge cost for gap closer was nice because you didn't have to spam it and Upheaval actually added some small room for error. While I'm not a fan of nascent flash healing allies it was at least not as bad as warrior healing the entire party and shielding them, feeling odd lorewise, flash also was still pretty broken for aoe healing. Was issues with it but it feels like all the changes made my issues with warrior worse.

Ew warrior feels like a step to just make a already simple class more easy for people and hey it worked it became the most popular tank! but I Sure dislike the warrior changes and it feels so boring and made purposely to be the "beginner friendly tank" look how overpower changed... It feels like warriors just been getting downgraded enjoyment wise for me.