Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[MikoRemi]

Yet, a DRK is also the job that gives me the best ability to prevent sudden deaths in the first place -- apart from maybe Paladin.

Just did an Antlion fight in Expert Roulette an hour or so ago where the healer died to the first round of mechanics and TBN, Oblation, the melee's Bloodbath, and some pots for self were plenty to see us through.

It's certainly handy but luckily you had melee's to even use Bloodbath. BLM and even SMN would be in a pickle other than Second Wind, same as anyone in the Physical Ranged space. Pots aren't also the most helpful things compared to a Clemency or Nascent Flash.

It's just unfortunate that Valknut still speaks true a bit in that DRK is just a bit off point for dungeons compared to the others. Sure, DRK can work some magic but it's a little more tricky than usual, that much is for sure. It's a preference thing though I suppose.

[Rithy255]

Dungeons should be letting tanks pull more, warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy), make dark mind have some physical aspects, give dark knight some slow over time sustain.

I think that would honestly make tanking 10x more fun in dungeons, every dungeon shouldn't really restrict pulls as much as they do currently is the main issue.

[MikoRemi]

Dungeons should be letting tanks pull more, warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy), make dark mind have some physical aspects, give dark knight some slow over time sustain.

I think that would honestly make tanking 10x more fun in dungeons, every dungeon shouldn't really restrict pulls as much as they do currently is the main issue.

Essentially agree other than the non AOE sustain on WAR. Might as well make Melee Bloodbath only heal per GCD, that'll make it real sad.

Rest though is quite fine.

[Rithy255]

Essentially agree other than the non AOE sustain on WAR. Might as well make Melee Bloodbath only heal per GCD, that'll make it real sad.

Rest though is quite fine.

AOE sustain on warrior just isn't fun IMO, fully healing yourself 4 times in a row in AOE cannot be balanced, unless we reduced the potency which then would make it bad for raids. I'd actually enjoy warrior in aoe more if it wasn't like that personally, Yeah again it's dungeons but dungeons shouldn't teach players that you can afk the tanks going to do all the healing in the pulls.
I hope you get where im coming from at least though, Like I can get why people might find it fun, but I think it takes too much from healers currently.

Bloodbath would actually make a interesting role action for tanks (aslong as it worked for drk too, as it doesn't work with magic attacks) as Bloodbath really isn't that strong potency wise, don't actually get why it's designed for melees now? like bloodbath makes way more sense as a tank tool.

[MikoRemi]

AOE sustain on warrior just isn't fun IMO, fully healing yourself 4 times in a row in AOE cannot be balanced, unless we reduced the potency which then would make it bad for raids. I'd actually enjoy warrior in aoe more if it wasn't like that personally, Yeah again it's dungeons but dungeons shouldn't teach players that you can afk the tanks going to do all the healing in the pulls.
I hope you get where im coming from at least though, Like I can get why people might find it fun, but I think it takes too much from healers currently.

Bloodbath would actually make a interesting role action for tanks (aslong as it worked for drk too, as it doesn't work with magic attacks) as Bloodbath really isn't that strong potency wise, don't actually get why it's designed for melees now? like bloodbath makes way more sense as a tank tool.

That's your opinion though. Having the sustain be useful in dungeons and raid settings whether it's from the AOE sustain or the barrier/mitigation potential, it's quite nice to have. It'd be a real shame to have it be touched, and there's far bigger things to touch really. Want to teach players not to AFK, there's been doom lately making the rounds since Fell Court of Troia since we moved away from the Bardam's Mettle puzzle boss style. Want to also not AFK, try content that's Extreme or higher and watch things get hellish if you do such a thing.
I can see where you're coming from but there's other ways to deal with it than harming a piece of kit. It's also just a difference of opinions at any rate, you don't like the sustain, I do, DRK is more for you then I suppose although unless that PLD status is old, maybe you prefer not as strong healing, fine by me but I got WAR for the big stuff. Some shifts include either adding some more elements to the combat design overall or giving something else to the other classes. Healer's should have that discussion on their threads, but I can say it's primarily their super boring "rotation" that's the bigger problem here. The healing is quite necessary for the actual hard content.

Bloodbath used to be a Warrior ability long long ago that was taken away and given to Melee's, which should get some good sustain since Second Wind is frankly near useless. Sure, you can maybe clutch survive one thing, but Bloodbath can do much much more. We don't need it now though, PLD has many forms of healing, WAR as well, GNB has a couple regens, and DRK could just use a reworked Blood Price. Melee and Tanks can enjoy the best of both worlds and I wouldn't want to take Bloodbath back from them, just give DRK something and maybe a tiny bit of help for GNB since that 25 second combo window is quite long unless you pop something before using it I suppose.

[Shurrikhan]

That's your opinion though. Having the sustain be useful in dungeons and raid settings whether it's from the AOE sustain or the barrier/mitigation potential, it's quite nice to have.

How is this relevant to what you're quoting, though? No one said that no tank should have AoE-scaled sustain. The problem is the procedure of that AoE sustain providing so great a degree of output that it devalues one's other tools.

TBN is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons. Heart of Corundom is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons. Holy Sheltron is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons.. They don't need to be as busted as Bloodwhetting's output in AoE to be useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons.

It'd be a real shame to have it be touched, and there's far bigger things to touch really.

Cue the whataboutisms. Let's hope they're at least relevant...

Want to teach players not to AFK, there's been doom lately making the rounds since Fell Court of Troia since we moved away from the Bardam's Mettle puzzle boss style.

A Doom that cannot be cleansed except through Esuna from failing to dodge provides no more tank gameplay that --you guessed it-- the Bardam's Mettle puzzle boss.

Want to also not AFK, try content that's Extreme or higher and watch things get hellish if you do such a thing.

Which is, as literally as can be... not a dungeon. The complaints are about dungeon gameplay. The thread is about dungeon gameplay. Dungeons. Not Extremes or higher. Dungeons.

I can see where you're coming from but there's other ways to deal with it than harming a piece of kit.

It is not "harming" a piece of kit to ask to return it to being interactive with the rest of the kit (such as by reverting it to its Shadowbringer's functionality, complete with the extra options and agency that entailed).

[Lyth]

The fun of lifesteal comes from keeping yourself alive against all odds. It's about risk. The community used to love 8 WAR/solo WAR runs back in ARR because those clears came right down to the wire. The example that I linked is one of the most entertaining examples of this (such an underrated video). Now, whenever you hear of an all WAR group clearing content, it's just not all that remarkable or exciting, because you know they're just hitting max health on demand. It's too safe.

I feel like the current iteration of WAR isn't designed for people who are actually interested in lifesteal and high risk tanking. It's designed for those tanks who, on hitting 90% HP on a single pack pull, pop all of their defensive cooldowns, burst into tears, and start screeching at their healers to heal them. It's just a mix of passive regens and on demand burst heals that function as a security blanket rather than requiring planning, precise timing, or understanding of incoming damage. I understand that the WAR and PLD changes this expansion were deliberately done to remove tanks' reliance on healers, but you can use other forms of self-healing to support beginner tank gameplay. Lifesteal deserves better implementation than this.

The most interesting lifesteal actions are contextual, in that the amount of healing depends on timing. Actions like Warcraft's Death Strike are designed to heal you based off of how much damage you've taken in the past few seconds, rather than being a fixed potency. Rewinding damage is a similarly fun concept in that it is timing dependent. The timing is where the element of risk comes in.

[MikoRemi]

I either pick to solo heal myself or help mit and heal a party member at the right timing. Bold to assume all WAR’s love to single pack and cry if they aren’t topped off, I like to see how low I can go and so do the good healers. Long as HP isn’t 0, all is fine.

If you want your risky heals then I guess DRK is just fine with Living Dead then, if they can make it more interesting then I’d be curious but then well be seeing more dead tanks. I already remember the woes of Stormblood despite the cool concepts, primarily because you can’t trust the community with that kind of stuff when they already don’t know what materia are

I mean if people wanna 8 man content with WAR then it’s whatever. Seeing Kou with his 4 man healer party in ARR was cool to see, but that’s not a common occurrence just like 8 man WAR parties, or the famed no phys ranged comps.

[Rithy255]

At this point I think tanks in general need a "defensive kit" overhaul, not just for the sake of dungeons but for the sake of things hitting harder, I think some sustain on tank in general is healthy (I think Gunbreaker is like the best example of good sustain but not overbearing), mainly I just want to move away from tanks not even having to use defensives anymore.

General-
Make the 30% mitigations "unique" Just please make them separate at this point lol might as well be role actions if not, maybe even add more rewards to mitigating damage correctly by having a slight DPS increase (has to be very slight).

PLD-
Holy Shellron should Give like 15% mitigation and a 15% barrier, (sort of like pvp with the barrier aspect) they can also do similar to intervention (Just please rework the animation to look like pld channelling a holy sheltron onto ally instead of the bad one we got currently lol), maybe breaking the barrier would reward you with idk shield swipe, I'd love clemency to become OGCD and apart of "plds mp management" so if you spammed it too much it would ruin your magic phase but good use of it wouldn't effect you, Cover can go off gauge, DV healing shouldn't be burst should be regen once barrier breaks, not a fan of passage but some like it's cone, can remove the Magic healing in place of the clemency management

DRK-
Kinda like it if drk could "augment" its defensive abilities to do different effects (example swapping dark mind to physical, turning oblation into a small life steal changing shadow wall to be faster but weaker ect.) "dark arts" TBN breaking should reward you with 10% on your next magic ogcd attack, kinda like it if they got a barrier aoe (stronger then DV but no healing regen, unless using DA which would give only the healing sustain effect to team).

War-
Remove AOE sustain, remove shake for a strong enemy intimidation ability that reduces the enemy's damage by 15% (like a stronger reprisal), Kind of would like it if in like SHB war would have to choose either to mitigate or to heal, You could increase warriors base Hp by 20% passively as well.

GNB-
Tbh mostly keep the same (maybe a 5-10% hp increase like pvp), I'd like its aoe to also work in physical honestly i think GNB has one of the better mitigation tool kits even if its a bit standard.

[Lyth]

Self-sustain is not a mandatory feature of tanking. You have an entire role dedicated to keeping you alive in co-operative content. The main benefit of adding in self-sustain is create exciting gameplay opportunities for tanks to make clutch saves. But it shouldn't replace the need for healers. A lot of the community backlash against the design choices on WAR this expansion aren't just coming from other tanks demanding parity. It's coming from healers as well. Upward balance through buffs is not an option, and I don't think players will support another expansion of this.

Part of the problem is that for self-sustain to be interesting, it needs to carry an element of risk. Most of the self-sustain approaches that we've seen eliminate risk, because they are either passive effects or they're available on demand to quickly bring you back to max HP. If you want to reintroduce risk, then you need to give players a reason to play chicken with a two digit HP total. That may mean having a heal that's only really effective when you're at lower HP totals. Or perhaps it may mean having a heal that's more effective after a tankbuster or higher damage hit.

The other issue is that it shouldn't be readily available. The problem with tying healing to defensive cooldowns is that you can afford to hold them in reserve until you need them. Equilibrium is literally just there to add extra HP on demand. Tying healing to offensive, resource-gated actions is a better approach, because you have less control over when they come up. In the event that the job in question has a spam burst window (IR/Del/Req), you just need to make it such that the 'free' hits have no self-healing attached.

We're coming into a new expansion, and that tends to be a time for stealth nerfs. My recommendation would be to be proactive and find compromises that are more balanced for WAR and reward skilled gameplay. I personally don't mind if there are some discrepancies in self-sustain, but if they exist they should be offset with unique strengths in other areas. That may mean that jobs with weaker self-sustain have unique access to better movement actions including raidwide movement speed buffs. But you can't have it all, so choose wisely.