Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Zairava]

Now you're getting it. Bloodwhetting isn't the crime against humanity everyone loves to make it out to be. If it was, it would handle everything on its own.

And indeed, I stick mitigations just fine like everyone else. If Bloodwhetting was like Holmgang on 25 seconds, and let you heal, I'd call for a nerf then sure. As it is, it's a very handy little tool that becomes another good addition to a fine kit. WAR and PLD shouldn't have to be the only ones with really good sustain though truthfully.

I'm hardly grasping, everyone else has to hard focus on WAR somehow being the most broken thing in multiple pieces of content as if it's somehow the only thing ever. You probably didn't read the thread with Supersnow which is understandable, but that's the crux of the arguments being made. Hard focusing on nerfing WAR won't solve anything. Fixing the others to stand up to par and going from there will be a lot more palatable in general and better for the long run. Honey over vinegar and all. If you have to pretend like I'm grasping for things haphazardly to win an argument as if that's a defense against any of your points however, then I'm afraid it's already over. Not like much will change anyway, suppose even if Dawntrail starts WAR in a less favorable position, 5 expansions show it will always come back each and every time anyway. Might as well focus on the actual jobs in need of good changes, WAR's can't be asking for everyone forever.

I'll leave the threads to it. You're welcome for Living Dead being better.

You already touched upon the actual issue, if the dungeons would challenge that sustain then nobody would be complaining. Im fine with the dungeons being less of a facepull but I do worry after remembering the days of The Burn when it first released, or Bardam’s Mettle, but with updated kits we would probably not have a nightmarish time like that.

Using EO's oneshot gimmicks is an absolutely terrible reason to somehow justify BW not being per hit and shake it off being more potent than Healer GCD's.

I don't know how literally anyone can possibly view Warrior's personal sustain with Bloodwhetting in dungeons and Shake it off as good for the long term, especially if they were to give it to every tank. We have the bloody holy trinity, WE should not be able to do the healer's job for them. Pressing one button every 25s to be literally invincible and more or less invalidate the healer's existence in normal content is nonsensical.

You would need to skyrocket the mob damage for it to even remotely challenge Bloodwhetting, and when Bloodwhetting falls, you would probably end up dying at worst to running out of defensives at best to that incoming damage being so high, depending on how mob HP is scaled and dps. They would need to balance the dungeon mobs purely around the fact that Warrior has Bloodwhetting every 25s and Holmgang every 4m.

Having an I win button every 25s and letting Shake it off be stronger than Healer aoe GCD's is not good design in a game where the holy trinity exists, especially when these abilities are on a tank. It isn't fun to just press button then be unkillable. There's no challenge in that at even a new player's level, no room for growth, no learning curve. You press button. You win. It's boring.

I'm thanking everyone who made Living Dead get changed. It took seven bloody years of mass requests to get it changed, not because Warrior mains complained.

They should be challenging the sustain and defensives, but unfortunately the devs have proven that they never will because we need people to be able to clear by being able to press the 1 key by using their nose on a DDR pad for some reason. Do I want them to make the dungeons challenging? sure. Will they ever? probably not.

It would be so much easier to just dial back Shake it Off and make Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting per GCD and not per hit it wouldn't even be worth their time to consider retuning every single encounter.

If you want an idea for DRK, Delirium used to give MP back whenever you were attacked, imagine if it gave back 50% of damage into HP, and maybe some MP(TBD), that way it makes it good for constant barrages as well as a big single target attack! And it would be a rather unique way to take the “suffering” of DRK and turn it into a cool button.

Correction, that was Blood Price, not Delirium. Delirium in Stormblood gave you MP at the expense of 50 blood gauge (and extended the duration on Blood Weapon and Blood Price), and in Heavensward it was an alternate combo ender.

What made Abyssal Drain so fun is because it actually required some modicum of knowledge of how the kit worked in order to make Abyssal Drain spam even possible. Blood Price and Weapon together is what allowed that in dungeons. The kit was so much more involved in MP management the thrill of pulling it off was always euphoric and fun, that isn't the case with Bloodwhetting because all you need to do is press the button and you have it. To top it off, Bloodwhetting is more potent than Abyssal Drain spam was thanks to shield/mit being built in and on a cooldown 15s shorter than Blood Price was. (40s)

[MikoRemi]

Oh yeah Blood Price. I forget it's that one but doesn't help that it's difficult to recheck every past action. I still say Delirium could be that button though but if they'd rather bring Blood Price back with that change and then Delirium into something else, that'd be cool.

EO isn't the only place with such a thing, the main thing is BW isn't all it's cracked up to be as if it's HG on 25 second cooldown, it just isn't. Can go on all about technicalities but until it gives straight up invuln, it is not.

Clearly people are enjoying it, while a vocal minority aren't. Healers in general need a more interesting rotation and the other tanks(not PLD), need more sustain tools since they're lacking which is where the pain comes from. We can have the trinity for the heavier content but especially for casual content, I have very little faith and would rather make sure I can keep the party going if need be. BW is a nice tool, but it isn't I win, that's just exaggeration. I win is BW giving all your attacks an extra 100k potency.

So Bardam's Mettle and The Burn? We needed our healers which everyone wants, but when I suggest the idea, oh no were dead with the boost. Can we pick a side and stick with it?

Indeed but it's how it was done quite specifically really. I mean I can remember some of the Living Dead threads but nowadays it's just throw tomatoes at WAR which is very helpful surely.

If Abyssal Drain was brought back now using MP but without the requirement of Dark Arts spam, it'd be a lot better. SB had a lot of quirky things like that where nowadays were quite strong. I still remember when Defiance was level 30...quite a long time before we could keep RDM's from ripping aggro. Diversion? Nobody uses that apparently despite being one button.

As usual there won't be any common ground to find here. If MCH could transition from SHB to EW with no kit changes until later, well see how DT goes but I'll wager WAR will just keep what it has now. Nerfs aren't the way until it gets as busted SMN outperforming over BLM and SAM by a landslide. Then maybe well have something. The tanks would probably get fixed a little more if two of them weren't crying about nerfs constantly on the one tank doing well. At least they leave PLD be, it's been a rough ride.

[Amenara]

I agree with everyone that the underlying issue is the levels in which every job, not even just tanks, learns skills is pretty messed up and needs to be looked at again. I think it honestly makes it harder to learn how to play a tank when you don't get your most important mitigation abilities until way later in the leveling process. At the very least, tanks should get a weaker version of them at lower levels in ARR and use traits to buff them at higher levels similar to what happens at level 82 so that newer tanks can learn how to use short CD mitigations earlier and have more time to practice and get better at it.

[MikoRemi]

I agree with everyone that the underlying issue is the levels in which every job, not even just tanks, learns skills is pretty messed up and needs to be looked at again. I think it honestly makes it harder to learn how to play a tank when you don't get your most important mitigation abilities until way later in the leveling process. At the very least, tanks should get a weaker version of them at lower levels in ARR and use traits to buff them at higher levels similar to what happens at level 82 so that newer tanks can learn how to use short CD mitigations earlier and have more time to practice and get better at it.

Not to mention things like generating gauge on certain jobs until really late(GNB cartridges in the 70’s, Beast Gauge at 74, etc.). This is sort of an issue with the majority of classes where they don’t really feel amazing until a certain level(Machinist is missing it’s 123 until Stormblood levels for example). It would also help newer players if they had just a wee bit more buttons at the beginning. Yes the early levels is good for learning the game slowly but those days when you get sub-50 content, everyone just feels bad haha.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

(Machinist is missing it’s 123 until Stormblood levels for example)

No it isn't. Split Shot, Slug Shot and Clean Shot are available at Lv1, Lv2 and Lv26 respectively. What you gain at Lv54, Lv60 and Lv64 respectively are the "Heated" versions. Clean Shot still combos are Heated Slug Shot at Lv60.

[MikoRemi]

No it isn't. Split Shot, Slug Shot and Clean Shot are available at Lv1, Lv2 and Lv26 respectively. What you gain at Lv54, Lv60 and Lv64 respectively are the "Heated" versions. Clean Shot still combos are Heated Slug Shot at Lv60.

I guess I should be more specific since you don't understand what I meant. Not having Heated Clean Shot around the HW levels really sucks. Have you tried POTD with it? It's really terrible to feel like you're missing something like that the entire time when the remaining two parts of your combo are upgraded. Most jobs in general got their entire chain going earlier. That's not even going into stuff like Hypercharge coming at lvl 30 but Heat Blast coming at lvl 35 if you want to get really specific.

The point I'm trying to make regardless, is there are some abilities that are locked way ahead that really don't feel good to be missing from the earlier kits. Stuff like Umbral Soul for BLM, The Blackest Night as well as Dark Missionary for DRK, Lilies in general for WHM, and so on. It wouldn't be that killer to move it up ahead since jobs would feel a little better, it's why some classes like MNK and RDM feel pretty fine at level 50, but things like BLM and DRK feel absolutely miserable until later levels.

[Shurrikhan]

Not having Heated Clean Shot

Is a potency upgrade to Clean Shot. Machinist having "its 123" is not locked behind that upgrade to the "3" you already had.

That's not even going into stuff like Hypercharge coming at lvl 30 but Heat Blast coming at lvl 35 if you want to get really specific.

If you want to get really specific, that's because Hypercharge grants a potency buff regardless of whether it's used on Heat Blast, Auto-crossbow or anything else. (Which is also why Heat Blast's direct ppgcd is 366, not 333.)

The point I'm trying to make regardless, is there are some abilities that are locked way ahead that really don't feel good to be missing from the earlier kits.

On this, pretty much anyone would agree. And already had across these forums since Stormblood.

To get back to the main point, though...

the main thing is BW isn't all it's cracked up to be as if it's HG on 25 second cooldown, it just isn't.

Read the content type mentioned in the title. Is it... trials? Is it... raids? EO boss fights?

No. It's dungeons. Wherein, yes, BW is essentially a cast of Benediction per GCD, for 4 GCDs straight.

Clearly people are enjoying it, while a vocal minority aren't.

Do you specifically enjoy it being braindead?

Ignore the power level; we're talking gameplay here. Do you specifically enjoy that it no longer has any interaction with the rest of your kit beyond just keeping your GCD rolling?

Healers in general need a more interesting rotation and the other tanks(not PLD), need more sustain tools since they're lacking which is where the pain comes from.

No. We don't. PLD and WAR should both have their flat sustain slightly tuned down or dungeons ought to be made harder (which devalues flat sustain, achieving very similar results). We can have the trinity for the heavier content but especially for casual content, I have very little faith and would rather make sure I can keep the party going if need be.

BW is a nice tool, but it isn't I win, that's just exaggeration. I win is BW giving all your attacks an extra 100k potency.

No one has said it is an "I win" button outside of obvious hyperbole. Fights aren't ended through healing. You're strawmanning again.

Again, though, it is effectively a multi-cast Benediction when used in AoE. An "I live" button, though? In the relevant context here? Absolutely.

I mean I can remember some of the Living Dead threads but nowadays it's just throw tomatoes at WAR which is very helpful surely.

Those two things have nothing to do with each other, and a huge portion of those throwing tomatoes at WAR's Endwalker design... are the WAR mains.

SB had a lot of quirky things like that where nowadays were quite strong. I still remember when Defiance was level 30...quite a long time before we could keep RDM's from ripping aggro. Diversion? Nobody uses that apparently despite being one button.

What does this have to do... with anything? Every tank got their tank stance at 30 (except PLD, who originally got it at 30). You were not single out. Every tank had hefty enmity modifiers on its combo skills, its ranged attack, and it first AoE; you didn't typically need the tank stance to hold threat unless you were significantly less geared and/or skilled than your DPS.

I don't get what you're even trying to 'prove' here.

Nerfs aren't the way until it gets as busted SMN outperforming over BLM and SAM by a landslide.

Nerfs are exactly the way whenever the outlier is a relative excess of strength, just as buffs are the way when the outlier is a relative lack of strength. The point is to correct an imbalance.

[MikoRemi]

snip

Ok, still doesn't invalidate it being inexcusable to have the final part locked behind SB just about every other job has their basic chains finished by the end of HW.

Ok and who unironically would use Hypercharge on anything but the actual heat skills unless they're braindead. Even bad MCH's I see don't do that.

Indeed it's dungeons. Can you separate a skill based on dungeons then trials then raids? No you can't. You cut it off in one section you'll cut it off in multiple. I may be peculiar on some details but even I can see the bigger picture than that.

What you call braindead is your business. I consider BLM pretty braindead and most people would say it's a hard job. Difficulty is subjective, tanks in general aren't hard to begin with.

A skill that does what it says on the tin is whatever. It's the same reason why I wouldn't care if Vengeance lost the Physical reflect it has. I got my combo chain state, I got my Inner Release state. Want more, go play GNB or something.

Harder dungeons don't devalue sustain, they increase the value by making it more necessary. I wouldn't lose the button itself and it still works like a charm which feels better than just having a worse button. Healer's also absolutely need a better rotation than just Dia>glare>etc.

Tell me you didn't read Zairava's comment without telling me just to try to make me look foolish. They specifically stated; "Having an I win button every 25s...", and I'm saying it's silly and untrue. I don't care about effectives, it is or isn't. Guess which one it is.

Don't know which WAR mains you're talking to, because a lot I hear from are loving how great the job is. One look at the threads here shows many DRK's giving such opinions along with MCH and I guess a SCH. The Living Dead comment is just in relation to how it took a lot of WAR's screaming specifically for Living Dead to get better as a show of how asking for buffs is better than nerfs. Sure some DRK's ask for that as they should, but a lot of WAR's screaming and especially how EXACTLY Living Dead works now...it's a bit of a funny coincidence when it's down to the wording.

Part 1 of 2.

[MikoRemi]

Everyone loves to glorify the ways of old and it frankly gets tiring to hear about sometimes. Not everything from before was amazing, hence why I mention all that old stuff. At least try to look into why I even responded with that.

Outliers was the patch when SMN was excessively, not just slightly but EXCESSIVELY more overpowered than BLM and SAM. Can't remember if it was SB or SHB at this point, been years, but that patch was insane for those. Here we have good healing I guess because two tanks lack decent heals, and we had to get good damage because funny P8S incident, and we still aren't even the highest DPS of all the tanks, not that we need to be of course. The outlier is in the other jobs needing to get up more, not SMN having a silly accident causing it to shoot way above even the strongest DPS. There's two ways to correct imbalance here, and yet you only want to look at the lazier and worse option. If you don't agree then that's whatever I guess.

Part 2 of 2.

[Zairava]

Indeed it's dungeons. Can you separate a skill based on dungeons then trials then raids? No you can't. You cut it off in one section you'll cut it off in multiple. I may be peculiar on some details but even I can see the bigger picture than that.

If we're still talking strictly Bloodwhetting, we can, since Holy Spirit/Circle/Req Combo all are cure potency per use, not per mob. It's on demand as well thanks to combo enders providing Divine Might.

Tell me you didn't read Zairava's comment without telling me just to try to make me look foolish. They specifically stated; "Having an I win button every 25s...", and I'm saying it's silly and untrue. I don't care about effectives, it is or isn't. Guess which one it is.

No one has said it is an "I win" button outside of obvious hyperbole. Fights aren't ended through healing. You're strawmanning again.

Emphasis on outside of obvious hyperbole, you either didn't notice I was being hyperbolic or neglected to read the other half of Shurrikhans statement.

Don't know which WAR mains you're talking to, because a lot I hear from are loving how great the job is.

It can perform great and still receive criticism on being too easy to play.

The Living Dead comment is just in relation to how it took a lot of WAR's screaming specifically for Living Dead to get better as a show of how asking for buffs is better than nerfs. Sure some DRK's ask for that as they should, but a lot of WAR's screaming and especially how EXACTLY Living Dead works now...it's a bit of a funny coincidence when it's down to the wording.

This is increasingly infuriating to read. It was not Warrior mains specifically that got Living Dead changed. It was several years of criticism and feedback from the majority of the playerbase to finally get that changed. I seen it on here, on reddit, in-game, etc. It was not specifically Warrior mains.

Everyone loves to glorify the ways of old and it frankly gets tiring to hear about sometimes. Not everything from before was amazing, hence why I mention all that old stuff. At least try to look into why I even responded with that.

In case it hasn't been made clear yet, it could, ya know, be those of us who enjoyed the old job design and hated seeing it get gutted. Regarding the tanks specifically, they could have just buffed tank stance to it's current form of enmity generation and nothing else and it would have been better than the oversimplification that was wrought.

Here we have good healing I guess because two tanks lack decent heals, and we had to get good damage because funny P8S incident, and we still aren't even the highest DPS of all the tanks, not that we need to be of course. The outlier is in the other jobs needing to get up more, not SMN having a silly accident causing it to shoot way above even the strongest DPS. There's two ways to correct imbalance here, and yet you only want to look at the lazier and worse option. If you don't agree then that's whatever I guess.

Dps is it's own issue with power creep, especially with the unneeded potency boosts when Shadowbringers launched. However, it's totally unrelated to sustain and defence unless you want to stretch it out and use the "killing faster = mitigation" stance.

The other tanks. do. not. need the healing. Dark Knight, especially the good Dark Knights, don't need it. We get by just fine. Unless the healing, if we get it, actually has some sort of cost warranting us to actually need to pay attention to anything in our kit (such as MP cost), I do not want it anywhere near Dark Knight. If they were to keep DRK as is for whatever unholy reason, it would only serve to further make it a copy paste of WAR otherwise.