Dawntrail Healers need a rework

[Katish]

What good will diversity do among the jobs - when you can't use 90% of your toolkit anyway???
- The damage output is ***** low and 80% of all dmg is avoidable!
You will all still be pressing the same buttons 90% of the time..be it 1 or 4 dps buttons.

This is why more dps buttons is usually accompanied with remove healing button bloat(?)
We have too many healing skills, and what's more, bloat that extends healing when it's situational anyway. If healing is binary, so too should the healing skills.
With more dps buttons, objectively speaking, it's having you do more than just 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 because then it makes you press, guess what, other buttons. That's not opinion, that's fact.

Now one could argue pressing additional buttons isn't fun, but then why are you playing this game that is having you press buttons? This is an mmo...If you argue class design is boring, well I agree on this, but that's just because the devs have been disinterested in giving healers anything that isn't free from healing or mitigation additions, this extends to other jobs as well in terms of having lack of inspired designs but healers definitely take the cake on this one.

[ty_taurus]

Regardless, the point also very much stands: That people opposed to the idea want a high skill ceiling*, feel it CAN'T be in the healing kit (due to wipes but somehow and wrongly excluding Enrage wipes from that metric), and so it must be through damage complexity.

The word "CAN'T" in all caps is another exaggerated choice of language here, that I feel is not properly addressing the situation.

The people who are dissatisfied with the state of healers find that healing is unfun because of standard attack spell spam. This is both because there are nearly no other DPS spells to engage with to give healers an offensive skill ceiling, as well as not enough outgoing damage consistently in all forms of content to make healing satisfying on healing alone. There does seem to be a mutual agreement that many of us would like to see more healing and believe it's possible to increase healing requirements, but that those requirements cannot be increased enough to make the dissatisfied healer players satiated with healing gameplay alone without making the healing requirements incredibly brutal on the common player. Let me explain with a visual aid...



The above mock up is a rough visual guide for what I'm about to explain and isn't based on any sort of numerical values, so don't take the scale too literally. But in the above graph, the area in cyan represents the amount of healing the average player can probably handle, and the vertical black bar represents where we are. There's room to increase that, but only so much before we surpass the cyan range. The area on the opposite end in magenta is where healing requirements need to be in order for those unhappy with the current healers to find the healing gameplay satisfactory enough to justify our current DPS tools. Notice that there is no overlap between the cyan and the magenta. There is a gap where damage is too much to handle for the common healer, and yet still not enough to make the healing requirements satisfactory by themselves. And this would need to be applied to all content to make the healing side of healers enough for those of us here.

[Shurrikhan]

And as I pointed out: "height" of skill ceiling isn't really an objective measurement. Even "on a scale from 1-10" is subjective. You'd probably put current WHM as a 2 or maybe 3 while I'd put it as a 5-6.

If you like, I can think of other words for "high", but I wasn't talking about you specifically.

That something is individually subjective does not make it unusable data.

"Well, after treating 10,000 people with gut wounds and asking each patient for their level of pain on a scale of 1-10, we have what would in any other case be a pretty solid data cluster, but we must keep in mind that feelings are subjective. We therefore can't really know whether getting shot in the gut is indeed painful."

_______________

On the broader subject:

I would agree that content design is going to be relevant here regardless of what changes we make to kits.

I would agree that we should be aiming to amp up healing requirements to a higher-yet-reasonable threshold, or at least plan room for that, before necessarily trying to accommodate the lowest points of downtime thereafter in group content (yes, solo content on heals will still suck, but... that's an outlier, and likely better fixed by having fellow NPCs who both dish and take more damage when one is on a healer job).

At the same time, though, downtime agency could absolutely use some fleshing out and diversifying.

[ty_taurus]

And as I pointed out: "height" of skill ceiling isn't really an objective measurement. Even "on a scale from 1-10" is subjective. You'd probably put current WHM as a 2 or maybe 3 while I'd put it as a 5-6.

I would put White Mage at a 1, or maybe a 0.5 if we're allowed to use decimals. I genuinely do not understand how you would look at a 30 second DoT, a 40 second cooldown, and the ability to use Afflatus Misery during buff windows as a 5 or 6. How high does the scale go? Where would you put Ninja? a 27/10? Like, I'm not trying to rag on your abilities or anything, but I would probably consider Ninja to be the hardest job to master (maybe others can disagree with me on that), but there's no way Ninja could only be 4-5 points higher than White Mage on the complexity scale. Comparatively speaking, that is "stratospheric," at least in relation to the healers.

[Aravell]

Honestly, looking at the arguments on the healer forums lately, I have to ask, "Why are we settling for just one aspect?".

More than one single aspect has to change to truly fix healers:
1) Healing requirements and healing kit bloat
2) Lack of kit interactivity and uselessness of MP
3) Barebones damage kit and lack of skill ceiling
4) Encounter design

We're going to need all of this to change for healers to actually feel like they matter again, anything less is just a band-aid and nothing but temporary satisfaction.

[Katish]

I would put White Mage at a 1, or maybe a 0.5 if we're allowed to use decimals. I genuinely do not understand how you would look at a 30 second DoT, a 40 second cooldown, and the ability to use Afflatus Misery during buff windows as a 5 or 6. How high does the scale go? Where would you put Ninja? a 27/10? Like, I'm not trying to rag on your abilities or anything, but I would probably consider Ninja to be the hardest job to master (maybe others can disagree with me on that), but there's no way Ninja could only be 4-5 points higher than White Mage on the complexity scale. Comparatively speaking, that is "stratospheric," at least in relation to the healers.

Off topic, what would you rate Dragoon as it is now? Just curious.

Honestly, looking at the arguments on the healer forums lately, I have to ask, "Why are we settling for just one aspect?".

More than one single aspect has to change to truly fix healers:
1) Healing requirements and healing kit bloat
2) Lack of kit interactivity and uselessness of MP
3) Barebones damage kit and lack of skill ceiling
4) Encounter design

We're going to need all of this to change for healers to actually feel like they matter again, anything less is just a band-aid and nothing but temporary satisfaction.

1000% agree, I feel as the ones who look at this and say, "Why do you want more DPS skills?! You just want healers as support..."
The issue is definitely the entire job design but it's easy to disregard what you say and only focus on one portion of your argument. I have said exactly this, which is why I accuse those arguing against are doing so in bad faith. "The, you only want DPS healers." No, I want to see it as a start for future designing because it's the easiest thing to do for developers as they change jobs every expansion and sometimes in between. Then work down the line...

[Supersnow845]

Off topic, what would you rate Dragoon as it is now? Just curious.

I’d put DRG at about an 7.5-8 right now

It’s not the hardest melee but it’s harder than all casters (except BLM) and the phys ranged

This is of course going with the assumption that my hardest job hits a 10 and not “no job is hard enough to be a 10”

[ASkellington]

BECAUSE THEY ARE DPS JOBS (in the case of SMN, DNC, and RPR) and in the case of WAR, they have a comparable amount of dps buttons when you consider their combos aren't choices or interesting. WAR's overall rotation is mostly similar to WHM's given that constraint, in fact, as I've shown before:

Heavy Swing-Maim-Storm's Path: Glare
-Storm's Eye: Dia
Overpower/Mithril Tempest: Holy
Upheval/Orogeny: Assize
Inner Release: Presence of Mind
Infuriate: Thin Air (or Swiftcast)
Fell Cleave: Solace/Rapture
Primal Rend: Misery

I'm just gonna go from here.


Thin Air isn't a DPS button.

Assize isn't a DPS button.

Solace isn't a DPS button.

Rapture isn't a DPS button.

I don't know why you put in Infuriate/Inner Release because I wouldn't count them as DPS buttons (since they don't do damage) and same applies to the WHM equivilants.



Heavy Swing/Maim/Storm's Path are THREE buttons not 1 last I check and also make a 1-2-4 combo with Storm's Eye.

WHM's DPS buttons are:

Glare, Dia, Holy, Misery, and (debatably) Assize.


WAR's:

Heavy Swing, Maim, Storm's Path, Overpower, Mithril Tempest, Upheaval, Orogeny, Decimate, Chaotic Cyclone, Primal Rend, Inner Chaos, Fell Cleave.

I'll even go a step further and do this for WAR: HS/Maim/SP = 1 button, Overpower/MT = 1 button and combine some that are one or the other like Fell Cleave/Decimate (1) and Orogeny/Upheaval (1).

Even with that and options only accessible when you're under a certain buff, WAR still has more DPS buttons than WHM. WHM can stand to get more.

Well I can finally get that out the way. Its about time we wrapped that up. Should've done it sooner honestly...

So is your view, and I quote, of me asking for "is limit their kit and limit which class can get improvements".

Saying 1 healer no matter which one it is stays the same in terms of DPS options is limiting their (dps) kit and also limiting which class can get improvements that other healers want to see. Just because you don't believe that, doesn't mean it is.

1) They're actually very well designed for the current state of combat, which is actually part of the problem.
2) Encounter design is the far bigger issue here.

Encounter design IS the state of combat. It doesn't reflect our healing kit and our healing kit doesn't reflect it. That we have too many heals for too little incoming damage IS objectively BAD design. It means our kits are overtuned and need to be change or combat design from the ground up needs to change. And I see the former happening before the latter thanks to the wonderful Trust System being implemented.

Yup. Yet another compromise I've made over time.

What's your point?

My point is you're perfectly fine giving us what we want - more dps buttons and a possible increased depth yet you still want to argue from here until kingdom come that one healer HAS TO STAY EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT IS NOW because you fear it will be too far and away from your liking.

And more to the point - you've been arguing with me for over a year on this exact point when I've been siding with you. Simply because you failed to read.

I've quite literally asked for Aero 3 and Banish to come back and yet you wanted to sit there and argue with me over the "gross simplification" of my post to keep it within the post limit.

If all healers were given SMN levels of rotation IN ADDITION TO HEALING REQUIREMENTS, I'd just play SMN instead. Why would I play a "healer" role with more complex rotations than actual DPS Jobs? That's stupid, especially since SMN offers raise and some healing capability.

WHERE HAS ANYONE ASKED FOR THAT LEGITIMATELY?

I swear you pulled that out of your hat. The ONLY healer people would be looking to have such high DPS buttons would be SGE because its the GNB of healers with SCH probably being a close second (DoTs) and then WHM.

I would find it interesting if we could have a WHM version of BLM (and we probably could if we fixed the Lily system to generate Misery a bit more often) but I've never seen someone ask for a SMN or even BLM level healer for ALL healers aside from having some of BLM's depth (as in it has down sides, but you have tools in your kit to deal with them and if you play well, you won't find them to be cumbersome).

YOU were telling ME why YOU think other people disagree with me.

_I_ was telling YOU why _I_ think those other people disagree with me.

I am one of the people who disagree with you am I not? And my reasoning for disagreeing with you is right there alongside other peoples'. Further, yes, you have accused me of wanting higher skill ceilings on all healers, repeatedly.

That I've had to REPEATEDLY remind you, no. That's not what I'm asking for.

As for the "stratospheric" - when I've proposed increasing skill ceiling but not by a lot, it is shot down as insufficient. So clearly it's not just a little nudge that people are asking for, it is something significantly higher (skill ceiling),

So your thinking of "significantly higher" is "stratospheric" and yet you want to police people on hyperbole? Did you even get a sense on what they mean by higher? Did you ask in depth what people are looking for with a higher skill ceiling? I'm gonna say no, not to insult you but primarily to bring up: its going to be wildly different from person to person.

For example, while I would WANT a BLM level of WHM, I don't think that's good for WHM mains who are looking for a more straight forward healer. I would prefer to have a few more options on WHM to make dpsing less stale for when I have to do it (a la MSQ) that keep in with the theme of WHM.

It can be tied to the lily system and said system gets improved to where I'm not forced to use JUST Afflatus heals to get Misery but healing in general and another Blood Lily option or two (though that'd still suck in solo).

I'm not and have never, asked for WHM to get the amount of DoTs SCH has. I don't want WHM to have AST's APM (didn't even agree with the 1.5 Glare/Broil change). And I stopped asking for WHM to be the GNB/Disc Priest healer the moment SGE got released.

I have and always will be asking for WHM to have an easy bar to entry with extra dps options for veterans to optimize if they so wish, and we can have that, so I don't see why we shouldn't ask for it.

Anyway, this is all a stupid tangent ASkellington got us on which now has people insulting and attacking each other - great job there, ASkellignton - so it's whatever.

I don't think its a tangent when the discussion is "Dawntrail Healers need a rework" when we can discuss why or why they don't need one and how to go about it.

Your 4 healer model is one way on how to go about it. And its one way I don't want to see.

[Zeastria]

This is why more dps buttons is usually accompanied with remove healing button bloat(?)
We have too many healing skills, and what's more, bloat that extends healing when it's situational anyway. If healing is binary, so too should the healing skills.
With more dps buttons, objectively speaking, it's having you do more than just 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 because then it makes you press, guess what, other buttons. That's not opinion, that's fact.

I find dpsing boring and i fall asleep when i play it , it dosn't matter if it's 1111, 237654823465..ect
( that's a personal opinion (not fact), and same goes for your opinion about dps)

Nobody here can come and say that
this game doesn't have an issue with its damage output,
especially on older content,lower level.. that is a FACT!

[Katish]

I’d put DRG at about an 7.5-8 right now

It’s not the hardest melee but it’s harder than all casters (except BLM) and the phys ranged

This is of course going with the assumption that my hardest job hits a 10 and not “no job is hard enough to be a 10”

I see, thank you for your input. I have not tried the job but was curious what other people thought of it. (I've started the melee DPS's finally, like MNK so far and wanted to start DRG.)

I find dps boring and i fall asleep when i play it , it dosn't matter if it's 1111, 237654823465..ect
( that's a personal opinion (not fact), and same goes for your opinion about dps)

That's not how facts work, I said below pressing buttons might make not be your cup of tea, but then why play (that portion is argumentative). Pressing buttons is mmo core design though, so it would make sense you would want to press them regardless of job. So I don't understand the reasoning to fight that...

Nobody here can come and say that
this game doesn't have an issue with its damage output,
especially on older content,lower level.. that is a FACT!

This is power-creeping (and is still opinionated) and is why healer buttons should be pruned (which again I brought up recently). But regardless, this will always be a thing as of how our gear functions progressively and is just proving my point that I made previously.

Edit: "this game doesn't have an issue with its damage output,
especially on older content,lower level.. that is a FACT!"
Oh you meant the opposite so I'll add on to my previous thought: no it certainly does...the gear syncing has higher thresholds making even the damage output for early dungeons negligible, but then that makes this an opinion now doesn't it? So not really a fact. I can sustain and do mostly dps in early dungeons with just regen and culling mobs, if I'm with a newer person, I might need to cast cure II every now and again. Though 50+ dungeons, I will almost never cast cure II...Same with the other flavors of healers.