Dawntrail Healers need a rework

[Katish]

I would put White Mage at a 1, or maybe a 0.5 if we're allowed to use decimals. I genuinely do not understand how you would look at a 30 second DoT, a 40 second cooldown, and the ability to use Afflatus Misery during buff windows as a 5 or 6. How high does the scale go? Where would you put Ninja? a 27/10? Like, I'm not trying to rag on your abilities or anything, but I would probably consider Ninja to be the hardest job to master (maybe others can disagree with me on that), but there's no way Ninja could only be 4-5 points higher than White Mage on the complexity scale. Comparatively speaking, that is "stratospheric," at least in relation to the healers.

Off topic, what would you rate Dragoon as it is now? Just curious.

Honestly, looking at the arguments on the healer forums lately, I have to ask, "Why are we settling for just one aspect?".

More than one single aspect has to change to truly fix healers:
1) Healing requirements and healing kit bloat
2) Lack of kit interactivity and uselessness of MP
3) Barebones damage kit and lack of skill ceiling
4) Encounter design

We're going to need all of this to change for healers to actually feel like they matter again, anything less is just a band-aid and nothing but temporary satisfaction.

1000% agree, I feel as the ones who look at this and say, "Why do you want more DPS skills?! You just want healers as support..."
The issue is definitely the entire job design but it's easy to disregard what you say and only focus on one portion of your argument. I have said exactly this, which is why I accuse those arguing against are doing so in bad faith. "The, you only want DPS healers." No, I want to see it as a start for future designing because it's the easiest thing to do for developers as they change jobs every expansion and sometimes in between. Then work down the line...

[Supersnow845]

Off topic, what would you rate Dragoon as it is now? Just curious.

I’d put DRG at about an 7.5-8 right now

It’s not the hardest melee but it’s harder than all casters (except BLM) and the phys ranged

This is of course going with the assumption that my hardest job hits a 10 and not “no job is hard enough to be a 10”

[Katish]

I’d put DRG at about an 7.5-8 right now

It’s not the hardest melee but it’s harder than all casters (except BLM) and the phys ranged

This is of course going with the assumption that my hardest job hits a 10 and not “no job is hard enough to be a 10”

I see, thank you for your input. I have not tried the job but was curious what other people thought of it. (I've started the melee DPS's finally, like MNK so far and wanted to start DRG.)

I find dps boring and i fall asleep when i play it , it dosn't matter if it's 1111, 237654823465..ect
( that's a personal opinion (not fact), and same goes for your opinion about dps)

That's not how facts work, I said below pressing buttons might make not be your cup of tea, but then why play (that portion is argumentative). Pressing buttons is mmo core design though, so it would make sense you would want to press them regardless of job. So I don't understand the reasoning to fight that...

Nobody here can come and say that
this game doesn't have an issue with its damage output,
especially on older content,lower level.. that is a FACT!

This is power-creeping (and is still opinionated) and is why healer buttons should be pruned (which again I brought up recently). But regardless, this will always be a thing as of how our gear functions progressively and is just proving my point that I made previously.

Edit: "this game doesn't have an issue with its damage output,
especially on older content,lower level.. that is a FACT!"
Oh you meant the opposite so I'll add on to my previous thought: no it certainly does...the gear syncing has higher thresholds making even the damage output for early dungeons negligible, but then that makes this an opinion now doesn't it? So not really a fact. I can sustain and do mostly dps in early dungeons with just regen and culling mobs, if I'm with a newer person, I might need to cast cure II every now and again. Though 50+ dungeons, I will almost never cast cure II...Same with the other flavors of healers.

[Zeastria]

That's not how facts work, I said below pressing buttons might make not be your cup of tea, but then why play (that portion is argumentative). Pressing buttons is mmo core design though, so it would make sense you would want to press them regardless of job. So I don't understand the reasoning to fight that...
This is power-creeping and is why healer buttons should be pruned (which again I brought up recently). But regardless, this will always be a thing as of how our gear functions progressively and is just proving my point that I made previously.

Pressing buttons is same - but the gameplay is not.
Also we have low healing req( damage output) in current content also (level 90) - even with minilvl.

Here is the thing:
We have two extreme desires for healers:

A) Wants more dmg skills,depth,rota..ect.
B) Wants higher heal req ( more healing)
(You have those who are at middle too, but for simplifying we speak about the 2 extremes)

The solution is to first solve the dmg output,
then somehow meet at the middle with the dps..
- Something that can work for both!...
(that both can tolerate enough).

[Katish]

Pressing buttons is same - but the gameplay is not.
Also we have low healing req( damage output) in current content also (level 90) - even with minilvl.

Here is the thing:
We have two extreme desires for healers:

A) Wants more dmg skills,depth,rota..ect.
B) Wants higher heal req ( more healing)
(You have those who are at middle too, but for simplifying we speak about the 2 extremes)

The solution is to first solve the dmg output,
then somehow meet at the middle with the dps..
- Something that can work for both!...
(that both can tolerate enough).

The issue with the latter is that raising the damage taken is argumentative on just how much it should be raised (although I agree it should be raised), but even should it...tanks can self heal and other classes can mitigate/heals...then there's the complexity of taking into account gear score and having to do that with ALL content...which even then does not futureproof it. Adding DPS buttons to add button pressing makes you objectively do more, and since DPS on healers is objectively 1 button press and another button every now and again, it should be mended. As for removing healing skills for equilibrium purposes, it helps cull the tools giving a more focused mindset on which healing tools should be used, creating complexity in healing, after that they can give the effort to trying to understand where the meaningful heals should be addressed. Class designs are much easier as they are every expansion or even pre-expansion and are easier to implement than reworking an entire system. Blue mage, if you haven't already tried already, holds the key for engaging healer gameplay imo; which I think deserves to be looked at in terms of figuring future healer gameplay.

...

Thanks for your opinion :3. I have decided to try it at the very least.

[Supersnow845]

The issue with the latter is that raising the damage taken is argumentative on just how much it should be raised (although I agree it should be raised), but even should it...tanks can self heal and other classes can mitigate...then there's the complexity of gear score and having to do that with ALL content...which even then does not futureproof it. Where as class designs are much easier as they are every expansion, and in between expansion. I recommend you try blue mage if you haven't already but that job has the key to what should be engaging healer gameplay.



Thanks for your opinion :3. I have decided to try it at the very least.

Raising healing requirements while so much of the party’s cumulative mitigation is on the DPS is also a big problem, abyssos was a problem because mistakes other party members made “looked” like it was a failure on the healers when really the healers were doing everything correctly

If they are going to up damage they need to consider removing mitigation from DPS and giving it back to the shield healer because the DPS would apparently rather wipe to a routine raidwide than press addle 99% of the time

Less relevant in casual content but still

[Aravell]

Raising healing requirements while so much of the party’s cumulative mitigation is on the DPS is also a big problem, abyssos was a problem because mistakes other party members made “looked” like it was a failure on the healers when really the healers were doing everything correctly

If they are going to up damage they need to consider removing mitigation from DPS and giving it back to the shield healer because the DPS would apparently rather wipe to a routine raidwide than press addle 99% of the time

Less relevant in casual content but still

Raising healing requirements without also spreading out damage frequency also has the side effect of making SCH+SGE not only a viable comp, but the best healer comp for safety. Which kind of puts WHM further down in the gutter since they have only Temperance to reduce damage while AST has 2 things and one of them is up every 60 seconds.

[ty_taurus]

Off topic, what would you rate Dragoon as it is now? Just curious.

I agree with Snow that no job really reaches a 10. I think back to past versions of the jobs as well, so some of the jobs during Heavensward might've hit a 10 for FFXIV, which is why I think none currently reach that level, but as for EW jobs:

10 - N/A
9 - N/A
8 - Ninja, Black Mage
7 - Dragoon
6 - Monk, Samurai, Bard
5 - Machinist, Red Mage, Gunbreaker
4 - Dancer, Reaper, Dark Knight
3 - Summoner, Warrior, Paladin, Astrologian
2 - Scholar
1 - White Mage, Sage

There are a bunch of jobs I'm only somewhat familiar with, and I just sort of ran that up quickly, so I might move things if I think about it some more. Even now, I'm going back to it a bunch of times and moving things around a little. Not all jobs in the same ranking are equivalent to each other for the record, and some are where they are for different reasons. Black Mage, for example, actually has one of the simplest DPS rotations, but is made really challenging by the unique nature that the game is constantly kicking you out of your rotation. You have to know when you need to move ahead of time in order to play Black Mage effectively and plan your mobility resources around that accordingly. Astrologian is mostly a 1, but its buff window burst is very physically demanding to perform on your fingers. Paladin is a little more complex than Warrior, but I don't think that's enough to push it into a 4 at the moment. Dark Knight's complexity is over-hyped I feel. Its just got a bunch of weaving in its burst, and is otherwise very straightforward. Your action order doesn't really matter. I don't know, I'm iffy on some of those still.

Dragoon I'd say has more to its skill ceiling because it has a lot of different cooldowns to keep track of that are really easy to desync until you get really good at the job.

[Katish]

I agree with Snow that no job really reaches a 10. I think back to past versions of the jobs as well, so some of the jobs during Heavensward might've hit a 10 for FFXIV, which is why I think none currently reach that level, but as for EW jobs:

10 - N/A
9 - N/A
8 - Ninja, Black Mage
7 - Dragoon
6 - Monk, Samurai, Bard
5 - Machinist, Red Mage, Gunbreaker
4 - Dancer, Reaper, Dark Knight
3 - Summoner, Warrior, Paladin, Astrologian
2 - Scholar
1 - White Mage, Sage

There are a bunch of jobs I'm only somewhat familiar with, and I just sort of ran that up quickly, so I might move things if I think about it some more. Even now, I'm going back to it a bunch of times and moving things around a little. Not all jobs in the same ranking are equivalent to each other for the record, and some are where they are for different reasons. Black Mage, for example, actually has one of the simplest DPS rotations, but is made really challenging by the unique nature that the game is constantly kicking you out of your rotation. You have to know when you need to move ahead of time in order to play Black Mage effectively and plan your mobility resources around that accordingly. Astrologian is mostly a 1, but its buff window burst is very physically demanding to perform on your fingers. Paladin is a little more complex than Warrior, but I don't think that's enough to push it into a 4 at the moment. Dark Knight's complexity is over-hyped I feel. Its just got a bunch of weaving in its burst, and is otherwise very straightforward. Your action order doesn't really matter. I don't know, I'm iffy on some of those still.

Dragoon I'd say has more to its skill ceiling because it has a lot of different cooldowns to keep track of that are really easy to desync until you get really good at the job.

Ah thank you for your opinion, as I mentioned thinking of trying DRG...but everything looks scary at first looking at it with the button presses XD. But I guess that's just what looking at things at first glance at max level makes you think...Well I'll try it today and see if I like it.

[Shurrikhan]

Off topic, what would you rate Dragoon as it is now? Just curious.

Just to supply another reference point, though all just off of EW iterations...

10 - N/A

9 - N/A

8 - Monk highly optimized in what little content creates downtime or damage amp windows (even if from just having adds at above the lowest non-CD AoE-trumps-ST mob count) as to force a non-looping rotation or playing at a GCD tier that cannot fully loop its rotation, BLM among extreme movement requirements or odd GCD tiers

7 - Ninja (though from tightness, not actual decision-making, of which there is virtually none), Bard if there's a reason to vary song order for once

6 - Dragoon with exploitable delayed oGCD AoEs, BLM, Samurai with bits of downtime that may force a change in rotational loop, Dancer if there were reasons to swap around Closed Position (between burstier bursts on one and higher lulls between bursts on another)

5 - Dragoon, Samurai, Bard, Reaper with greater than normal value for a Double Shroud, Paladin if there's something to leverage its range for, Red Mage if there are adds to exploit, Gunbreaker in content that can encourage desync (such as for holding DD for AoE), Astrologian if best Melee/Ranged card recipient varies with timing

4 - Dancer, Bard, Red Mage, Gunbreaker

3 - Astrologian, Paladin, Machinist, Dark Knight, Reaper

2 - Warrior, Scholar, Summoner, White Mage if there's a Misery-cleave opportunity that's not aligned with the minute interval and there's actually enough healing required to get value out of Regen sometimes but not all the time

1 - White Mage, Sage