What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Xirean]

I played the game where it's casually hinted at multiple times that we were Azem.

You mean where multiple characters noted the similarity of the WoL's soul to the soul of Azem.
Hythlodaus: "A bit thin in the aether, but it's soul is almost identical to Azem's"
The WoL introduces themself as "Azem's familiar" to several people.

It's not possible the WoL existed in Elpis-- they're a sundered being.

What do you think Elidibus did with the crystal tower? Send the WoL into a fever dream or a simulation? It was time travel which the tower is able to do because of Cid, explained in the sidequests for the dungeon The Twinning. It's the entire reason Shadowbringers was able to happen. It brought the tower to the first along with G'raha Tia.

Also Elidibus just conveniently remembers us despite never having his memory affected by Kairos...?

When was Elidibus effected by Kairos? He's not part of the Elpis MSQ where that device is relevant.

So by extension, there's an original past time line that exists independent of our visit.

How I wish that were the case.

I'd be interested to know how the unsundered Ascians—Lahabrea, Elidibus, and Emet-Selch—avoided being kicked into 14 pieces by Hydaelyn.
A4. https://youtu.be/WRpdIL7_NII?t=13301
Summary: Venat intentionally left a tiny flaw in her sundering attack, a "crack" for Emet-Selch to wiggle through. This was a gamble because she didn't have full control over the sundering attack, she could not be sure Emet-Selch would live.

How is it a gamble and how does she not have control if she knew she was going to it and the result because we told her? Riddle me this

A few things on this. The question is in regards specifically to how the trio escaped the sundering and not if Venat knew if the sundering attack would shatter the world or not. The "gamble" on Venat's part was if she could successfully keep those 3 unsundered or not, which she was able to do as we see in game with those 3 still being unsundered. Ironically you have actually provided evidence that goes against your claim and is one of the bigger pieces of evidence that people have used in this thread to prove that Venat did the sundering on purpose.

I ask you again. What game did you play?

[Turtledeluxe]

You mean where multiple characters noted the similarity of the WoL's soul to the soul of Azem.
Hythlodaus: "A bit thin in the aether, but it's soul is almost identical to Azem's"
The WoL introduces themself as "Azem's familiar" to several people.

Yes, you're proving my point. It's why they don't show Azem, why they never gender Azem, why we seem like Azem to others and most likely why we ended up inheriting the crystal.

What do you think Elidibus did with the crystal tower? Send the WoL into a fever dream or a simulation?

What I suspect occurred is that, in the original past there was no visit. So our visit created a deviant timeline which ends up conjoining with the present time. Recall that Venat tells us "a conjunction has begun to form between your time and mine". This is the reason the devs haven't definitively answered what happened with the timelines imo, because multiple ideas work. I prefer one that makes the story more coherent.

When was Elidibus effected by Kairos? He's not part of the Elpis MSQ where that device is relevant.

That's exactly my point. How does he not notice us until conveniently after the "conjunction" begins to form? He has no excuse.

The "gamble" on Venat's part was if she could successfully keep those 3 unsundered or not, which she was able to do as we see in game with those 3 still being unsundered. Ironically you have actually provided evidence that goes against your claim and is one of the bigger pieces of evidence that people have used in this thread to prove that Venat did the sundering on purpose.

You didn't answer the question. How can Venat gamble or lack control of something when she's well informed about the future of Emet and her imminent sundering slash?

In fact in general if it's single timeline time loop, why is the game the way it is at all? I could literally write a book of how it really makes pre EW Hydaelyn nonsensical and bizarrely obsessed with drawing out the Ascian conflict and keeping everything exactly the same.

[Absimiliard]

You didn't answer the question. How can Venat gamble or lack control of something when she's well informed about the future of Emet and her imminent sundering slash?

Yoshi-P already answered that question in the link the poster provided. In short, the sundering required utilizing her power to its utmost limits. The monumental effort required made the technique something unwieldy to say the least - virtually uncontrollable, and so she was unsure if her attempt to give Emet-Selch an out would actually work. It was also partially up to the man himself; he needed to recognize what was happening, spot the "flaw" in the sundering, and take action to preserve himself.

[Turtledeluxe]

Yoshi-P already answered that question in the link the poster provided. In short, the sundering required utilizing her power to its utmost limits. The monumental effort required made the technique something unwieldy to say the least - virtually uncontrollable, and so she was unsure if her attempt to give Emet-Selch an out would actually work. It was also partially up to the man himself; he needed to recognize what was happening, spot the "flaw" in the sundering, and take action to preserve himself.

How was she unsure when she knows his future is at the bottom of the sea playing games with their city? We told her all this. Emet existing in his og form post sundering absolutely requires that he survive the sundering. If it's all one timeline, if Venat is fully informed, then it isn't a gamble. It's a choice.

I also forgot to address Graha-- yes he time traveled and unlike us, he stayed there for a long time. It's unclear what would have occurred on the first without his visit.

[Absimiliard]

How was she unsure when she knows his future is at the bottom of the sea playing games with their city? We told her all this. Emet existing in his og form post sundering absolutely requires that he survive the sundering. If it's all one timeline, if Venat is fully informed, then it isn't a gamble. It's a choice.

The future wasn't certain. That's kinda the point. Venat didn't know if she could reach the outcome she sought or not. All she could do was use the knowledge she was given to try for it, and that is precisely what she did. Obviously the narrative took the direction of her being successful, but from an in-universe perspective nothing was over til it was over. Things could've gone awry at any time.

[Absurdity]

The future wasn't certain. That's kinda the point. Venat didn't know if she could reach the outcome she sought or not. All she could do was use the knowledge she was given to try for it, and that is precisely what she did. Obviously the narrative took the direction of her being successful, but from an in-universe perspective nothing was over til it was over. Things could've gone awry at any time.

And they absolutely would've gone awry if it weren't for the events of Shadowbringers. Remember that Graha pulled us into the first to not only save that shard but also to prevent us from dying as a consequence of it rejoining with the source.

[Nayukhuut]

And they absolutely would've gone awry if it weren't for the events of Shadowbringers. Remember that Graha pulled us into the first to not only save that shard but also to prevent us from dying as a consequence of it rejoining with the source.

Expecting that we are not done with that alternate timeline, either. I wouldn't be shocked even in the slightest that if in a few expansions from now we basically pull another Shadowbringers, but this time end up in that alternate timeline. They would get to parade around Emet, Elidibus, and Venat version 2. :P

It's gonna be FF14's Warlords of Draenor/Legion moment.

[Turtledeluxe]

The future wasn't certain. That's kinda the point. Venat didn't know if she could reach the outcome she sought or not. All she could do was use the knowledge she was given to try for it, and that is precisely what she did. Obviously the narrative took the direction of her being successful, but from an in-universe perspective nothing was over til it was over. Things could've gone awry at any time.

So in the case of the attack, we tell her what she does. In the case of Emet, we don't. Got it. I don't subscribe to your single timeline theory anyway, but you don't seem to be able to make it make sense. That's considering you're in denial that Elidibus spells out that fate can't be changed. And no I didn't take out context, he does tell you that your actions won't affect the future. In that sense with Shadowbringers, we weren't coming at that story from a future point of that world but another. So it's not comparable at all. You cannot say it works just like 5.0 because we don't have access to the future of 5.0 as we did with 6.0 when we visited Elpis.

And my point is that, you cannot cite the same specific assign intention to the sundering if by your own logic it's all just a gamble. Maybe this time, she was just trying to sunder Zodiark, or the local area, and not the entire world. Maybe this time she didn't want to create reflections. Or does something exist that distinguishes what the other possibilities she was accounting for here? Is there a resource for what we told her and what we didn't? Since she was accounting for Emet not surviving (and by extension everything going differently as a result of her attack)? And yes, that's even if you use her words at the end of the trial, because the way she explains it makes her seem disappointed, not pleased. That's even if you use the JP quote by the way because "what's done is done" can also be interpreted as reisignation and/or regret.

What lore are you referring to that she didn't know what her attack would do? We literally tell her what she does. The walk cutscene, while not a literal retelling of events, shows her doing it deliberately. Also on the mention of not everyone dying; you're right there were THREE survivors from the entire planet. It's also worth noting that the use of the term genocide is not reliant on the effectiveness of said genocide. Not everyone has to be dead for us to call it what it is.

Which reminds me you can keep throwing around the word genocide, intention always matters.

[Lunaxia]

So in the case of the attack, we tell her what she does. In the case of Emet, we don't. Got it. I don't subscribe to your single timeline theory anyway, but you don't seem to be able to make it make sense. That's considering you're in denial that Elidibus spells out that fate can't be changed. And no I didn't take out context, he does tell you that your actions won't affect the future.

We tell her everything, but we can't tell her the exact details of how everything came to pass, because we don't know either. All she could do was try her best to set up the circumstances that would seemingly permit our future to happen, so in that respect, there was always going to be some unavoidable risk involved.

And when Elidibus says "you cannot affect change", he isn't saying we are incapable of doing so - he's saying that we can't if we want our future (the present as is) to come to pass, and to that end, for the timeline to stay as is.

Yet even should you manage to interact with others, you will be unable to effect meaningful change. For the reality you wish to save—the reality to which you must return—exists as a result of the Final Days. You cannot reshape the past to undo the tragedies of the present. Cannot unmake the sorrow and suffering fated to come.

So he's saying even if you want to help, you can't, because if you throw everything off balance by trying to change things, you risk jeopardising the current world we're going back in the past to save in the first place.

You cannot say it works just like 5.0 because we don't have access to the future of 5.0 as we did with 6.0 when we visited Elpis.

??? It is the same, we're just G'raha in this scenario. Only we want to preserve our future, whereas G'raha wanted to do the opposite and undo theirs.

Maybe this time, she was just trying to sunder Zodiark, or the local area, and not the entire world. Maybe this time she didn't want to create reflections. Or does something exist that distinguishes what the other possibilities she was accounting for here?

Nope, everything had to proceed as it did in our world's past, otherwise we wouldn't exist to be able to battle Meteion. Everything had to happen the way it originally did, including the Sundering, the shards and the Ascians going about their shenanigans with Calamities, for the outcome that she believed the most in to be able to happen.

[TheMightyMollusk]

I also forgot to address Graha-- yes he time traveled and unlike us, he stayed there for a long time. It's unclear what would have occurred on the first without his visit.

If G'raha doesn't go to the First and eventually summon the WoL there, then Zenos stays in Eorzea hunting for us and doesn't stop Varis from releasing the Black Rose, causing the Eighth Calamity and the Rejoining. We know how that goes.