What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Absimiliard]

If our Elpis visit is what actually happened in the original time then I don't understand your original argument that Emet couldn't have gleaned our past from someone who saw us or the Aether. His memories were wiped and we are clearly a reincarnation but surely since it's so casual he could find it from some other subject or the Aether? And then what about everyone else who were investigating the final days? I've already asked why is Venat the single person who can solve the mystery? Bc you want to poke holes in EW or?

Her playing games with Emet doesn't prove anything. The point is she explicitly tells us she's going to bring people I to the fold and I assume she does (the Twelve??) but whatever she does fails because she can't stop the Zodiark solution...

The WoL is a fragment of Azem, not a fragment of a different version of themselves from another timeline. The events of Elpis would not be present anywhere in their being if they themselves had not been there. It's as simple as that. "Our" WoL had no involvement with Elpis or its events until the exact moment they went there, not until.

The people investigating the Final Days were lacking a significant amount of information as to its true nature. They did not know about Meteion because Venat never told them. They completely misdiagnosed the problem in their ignorance, although they were fortunate enough for Hermes and his contemporaries to wind up arriving at a workable, if temporary solution in the form of Zodiark. Through Zodiark they managed to treat the symptoms even if the cause remained unknown.

Or were you meaning people in the modern era trying to understand it? If so, then that answer is a lot more simple. Setting aside how rare the Echo actually is, there's a limit on how far back you can look with it. Modern Echo-users, no matter how skilled, would never be able to look far enough back to glean even one iota of useful information about the Final Days from the world.

"Playing games" with Emet-Selch, as you put it, was a key part of ensuring the timeline she sought would come to pass. It was only through the presence of the Ascians things could play out in a manner necessary for events to unfold as they'd been foretold. And for Venat "bringing others into the fold?" That does not necessarily mean she's told them the truth of it, particularly since we're told outright she never did. She recruited followers, yes, but none of them understood what was really happening.

Oh, right, I almost forgot:
Why Venat? Because that's the story. The story presents us with a situation wherein the rest of her people proved insufficient at correctly diagnosing the Final Days in the time they had. We can speculate all we want about whether or not they might've been able to figure it out in the span of however many millennia Zodiark bought them, but that's not the story we've been given. The story we've been given leaves Venat holding all the cards. She knew the future, she knew the true nature of the Final Days, and she even new Meteion's location courtesy of having tagged her before she escaped Etheriys' atmosphere.

[Turtledeluxe]

The WoL is a fragment of Azem, not a fragment of a different version of themselves from another timeline. The events of Elpis would not be present anywhere in their being if they themselves had not been there. It's as simple as that. "Our" WoL had no involvement with Elpis or its events until the exact moment they went there, not until.[

The people investigating the Final Days were lacking a significant amount of information as to its true nature. They did not know about Meteion because Venat never told them. They completely misdiagnosed the problem in their ignorance, although they were fortunate enough for Hermes and his contemporaries to wind up arriving at a workable, if temporary solution in the form of Zodiark. Through Zodiark they managed to treat the symptoms even if the cause remained unknown.

Or were you meaning people in the modern era trying to understand it? If so, then that answer is a lot more simple. Setting aside how rare the Echo actually is, there's a limit on how far back you can look with it. Modern Echo-users, no matter how skilled, would never be able to look far enough back to glean even one iota of useful information about the Final Days.

"Playing games" with Emet-Selch, as you put it, was a key part of ensuring the timeline she sought would come to pass. It was only through the presence of the Ascians things could play out in a manner necessary for events to unfold as they'd been foretold. And for Venat "bringing others into the fold?" That does not necessarily mean she's told them the truth of it, particularly since we're told outright she never did. She recruited followers, yes, but none of them understood what was really happening.

So we are going in circles because originally you implied that due to time linearity it is impossible for Emet to view our past, when that isn't true because as you are now acknowledging the events actually happened (it was just Azem not us) meaning Emet and all his contemporaries had myriad observers, artifacts, the Aether itself to call upon to determine Hermes misdeeds but whoops-- it doesn't work bc why?

As far as Venat didn't tell anyone... Assuming that is literal and true she still gives a motivation for that ie Hermes himself is the issue and WoL has told her the panic fuels the final days.

So what we have learned from this conversation is that "lol ancients casually viewed the past" is categorically false which is exactly what I was saying. As you are now saying it can't be used to solve all problems, everything hinges on Venat.

And regarding hinging on Venat I don't see how "Meteion did it" changes anything. Isn't the reason Hermes was sending Her because they couldn't do space travel? Venat was tracking Meteion but that doesn't mean she had direct access. And again how does enabling the villain make things better

[Absimiliard]

So we are going in circles because originally you implied that due to time linearity it is impossible for Emet to view our past, when that isn't true because as you are now acknowledging the events actually happened (it was just Azem not us) meaning Emet and all his contemporaries had myriad observers, artifacts, the Aether itself to call upon to determine Hermes misdeeds but whoops-- it doesn't work bc why?

As far as Venat didn't tell anyone... Assuming that is literal and true she still gives a motivation for that ie Hermes himself is the issue and WoL has told her the panic fuels the final days.

You do realize Azem wasn't in Elpis, right? Like, at all, at least not at the point in time in question. What I am saying is that the Warrior of Light never had any contact with Elpis until they actually went there, which therefore means Emet-Selch had no way of gleaning anything about it when they met on the First. You keep insisting Emet-Selch could somehow have gained this information, when this information wasn't yet there to gain.

Let me see if I can explain this another way. I do not have the same memories I will in ten years. Me ten years form now would have the memories from that ten year span. It's the same basic principle. The WoL, at the time they visited the First, has not yet been to Elpis. They did not have any memories of Elpis, and there was no way it could have left any sort of impression on their aether.

Besides, even if Azem had been there and this somehow influenced the WoL, it still wouldn't matter. Reincarnation requires you go through the lifestream and be cleansed, which means the memories of your previous life are stripped away.

[Lunaxia]

I should also point out Emet-Selch only made it through the sundering intact because she intentionally left a crack in it with full expectation he would recognize it and save himself. This action was deliberately carried out with the intent of facilitating the timeline she'd had described to her by the Warrior of Light. Noting of course she possessed full knowledge of what Emet-Selch and his fellow Ascians would become in time, their objectives, and the untold deaths they would cause in the pursuit of those objectives.

This is another one of those plot points that seem even stranger looking back. How does one actually "escape" the Sundering or leave a "crack" in something so total and devastating? How does one know where to be or how to exploit such a weakness? How was there any time for him to do so? Were the Ancients even capable of leaving their bodies at that stage? Did Zodiark grant them that power? How do the devs' wrists not ache from all this handwaving? Mysteries abound.

[Nayukhuut]

That's not how the rules work. Venat tells us you need the subject to recall or you can view it etched into the Aether, albeit it is unreliable. My point being the trip may not have happened but technically the events are "preserved" according to the rules unless you want to say it was one of those events prone to waning or perhaps Kairos affected it (as operates using Aether waves). But in that case why don't the rules apply to the events in the past well? Or can Venat/ whoever only pull an instance of the Kairos event only when convenient for EW critics?

The fact is it is a flavor of Venat using the echo. It's unclear whether it's common knowledge or even how reliable it is to begin with. Venat did clue certain people into the fold and they weren't able to stop the reaction of summoning Zodiark. When faced with the choice of a tempered future she gambled and sundered the world. Very simple.

If we follow your rules and assume the aether method is unreliable, then we do have a subject that can recall what happened. Venat herself. The Convocation could have easily had someone they trust inspect her memories to see what's up. That plus the physical evidence would have been proof. I highly doubt that Venat and Azem were the only people who could use the Echo to see into the past. I suspect it just wasn't done wholesale in Ancient society because peering into ones memories is quite an invasion of privacy.

Also, Venat didn't even try to stop Zodiark. She only started really doing anything after he was summoned. She knew she needed him to hold off Meteion.

[Turtledeluxe]

Just gonna throw out there that Venat directly shows the WoL how she could have shown the convocation what happened. By just going to the physical places where events occurred she can look into the past and bring others with the Echo with her into the vision. Theoretically, other convocation members could do this without her help, but the point stands that the solution is painted very clearly right in front of us as players.

Also just gotta say that Emet not caring to learn what he forgot seems rather out of character.

Imo knowing what happened isn't the solution. The solution is having the technology and willpower, when people in the past lacked one or both.

[Turtledeluxe]

If we follow your rules and assume the aether method is unreliable, then we do have a subject that can recall what happened. Venat herself. The Convocation could have easily had someone they trust inspect her memories to see what's up. That plus the physical evidence would have been proof. I highly doubt that Venat and Azem were the only people who could use the Echo to see into the past. I suspect it just wasn't done wholesale in Ancient society because peering into ones memories is quite an invasion of privacy.

Also, Venat didn't even try to stop Zodiark. She only started really doing anything after he was summoned. She knew she needed him to hold off Meteion.

To your first point all you're doing is strengthening my original argument which is that the onus isn't just on Venat. Other people could have done more.

To your second point, sundering is doing something imo.

I'm ar my post limit so i will summarize several points:

- It doesn't matter that the WoL doesn't have the memories to be gleaned. My point is that the experience happened in the past so artifacts, locations, observers, aether itself all act as sources to be drawn from. The end. Hyper focusing on the WoL is just a distraction.

- Regarding what Venat did prior to summoning, she had followers but its not covered a great deal because it doesn't matter. What matters is they failed and sundering was her big gamble in the face of panic and tempering. What's stupid is living in a mostly tempered world permanently.


- There's zero evidence that the Ancients were able to travel space as far as required, otherwise I'd imagine they have done it and Hermes never would have invented Meteion. In fact we have opposite evidence I've already cited. Simply knowing Meteion and Hermes are the villains isn't enough, period. While Venat telling people would've been cool, it doesn't prove any argument that the final days would have been averted.

-Also as far as other people investigating-- given the fact other people with memory in tact interacted with us investigating Meteion and Hermes, and given the onset of dynamis discovery, yes it's plausible memories would be investigated even if Venat never said a word.

- Finally spinning it like Venat could've done X y ans z when this is the finale to a 10 year story that you know very well wasn't written in advance is petty and a waste of time. We are lucky past Hydaelyn and Venat make any kind of sense at all.

[Nayukhuut]

To your first point all you're doing is strengthening my original argument which is that the onus isn't just on Venat. Other people could have done more.

To your second point, sundering is doing something imo.

Yeh, I didn't say she didn't do anything. I said she only did something AFTER Zodiark was summoned. That something was moronic, but she did indeed do something.

As for the first part, why would the Ancients casually just go around peering into people's minds? What leap at all would make them think "oh, the end of days are happening, I better start invading people's privacy"? The information was Venat's to give, and she was the only person on the planet with it. It was on her to share it.

[Xirean]

Imo knowing what happened isn't the solution. The solution is having the technology and willpower, when people in the past lacked one or both.

Hold up. They didn't have the information of exactly what was going on and still made a fully planned temporary solution that allowed the planet to survive for 12,000+ years in pieces; and you think they "lacked technology and willpower"?

That's a rather sizeable downplay there friend. Now imagine how much better their solution could have been if they actually had all the information from the start.

[Nayukhuut]

You know one of the most annoying parts of the Venat situation? The story could have easily been told where events happened exactly as they did, but Venat ended up more of a tragic figure trying to fight for her people than an outright murderer who knowingly doomed them. Unfortunately the game decided to have a disconnect in what it showed versus what it told. There are many simple changes that could have made the narrative make more sense and made Venat somewhat sympathetic, but they went with none of them.

One I can think of off the top of my head is have it so that she was fighting Zodiark because she didn't believe in more sacrifices, and then when her attack broke him into pieces it had the unforeseen consequence of doing it to the whole planet. That lets her fight for her cause, and then actually be tragic because she didn't inflict the pain she caused on purpose. Her installing gods to guide us would have made more sense as she would have been trying to fix a situation she created accidentally, but now it just comes across as a fanatic who won and is now telling us all how we should live.