Revelations from Patch 6.5: "Growing Light", Part 1

[Lunaxia]

To that last part. I'm not sure that group is as big....

It's not, it's just pretending that feel-good-fluff was always FFXIV's MO and anyone who presumed that more of the nuanced stories we got in in the prior three games would make a return was somehow wishing for Ascian supremacy and Venat's portrayal as a genocidal maniac. It's very boring, but there it is.

Then there is the what I feel is the easier to exaggerate if not to just meme on part that it the Scions disbanding. As some if you were to take the exaggeration and memes seriously would want you to believe that the entire group were constantly there the whole time. And yes the complaint about not showing an amount of time having passed since 6.0 to 6.1 is a problem. A problem that I don't think anyone really disagrees with as it's been a problem since the start. Yet I still feel that even if we hadn't seen anyone else but Estinien this entire time until just now some people would still claim there wasn't any real break.

Probably not, but it's worth remembering we have been stuck with these characters for nearly a decade. And initially, that was actually fine, when they were off doing their own thing and we met up with them occasionally and took them here and there, but after four years of having them constantly pinned to our sides on top of that, I think a lot of players are really, really beyond fatigued with them, to the point a minor break wouldn't change much. They don't even offer anything to the scenes they're in anymore beyond exposition, and in some cases have effectively become flanderised versions of their former selves.

I'm not going to get into the "they said they were disbanding" debate because [incoherent noises], but I think there's a case to be made that it is very weird to not only put that out there (officially, unofficially, whatever) and have the Scions seemingly doing their own thing, then make a big song and dance of ending the previous arc they have always been innately part of and pushing the whole "you're an adventurer again!" schtick and implying you're going to be off on your own journey like we did when we started out... only to drag them back into the MSQ and have them follow us around again when they're not necessary, they don't even have a story to tell anymore and there's nothing tying them to the plot. Even if you didn't pay attention to whether they were actually disbanding or not, it just seemed like a natural course of events to break away from them, at least for a time, but then... surprise, I guess. And not a pleasant one, hence the response.

[SannaR]

I'm not going to get into the "they said they were disbanding" debate because [incoherent noises], but I think there's a case to be made that it is very weird to not only put that out there (officially, unofficially, whatever) and have the Scions seemingly doing their own thing, then make a big song and dance of ending the previous arc they have always been innately part of and pushing the whole "you're an adventurer again!" schtick and implying you're going to be off on your own journey like we did when we started out... only to drag them back into the MSQ and have them follow us around again when they're not necessary, they don't even have a story to tell anymore and there's nothing tying them to the plot. Even if you didn't pay attention to whether they were actually disbanding or not, it just seemed like a natural course of events to break away from them, at least for a time, but then... surprise, I guess. And not a pleasant one, hence the response.

I don't know. There are some out there who have had a high level of mistrust if not outright loathing of Hydelean since at least 3.2 all due to that patch's key art. Hell some even before that. They might deny it, but I do remember some of those still around that were very much "She's gotta be evil, trust me Bro" prior to that patch's artwork. That they had as much love for the Ascians even back then as deep as Denishia's disdain for Emet-Selch.

I'm probably going to have to agree to disagree on the Flanderising. I'm not sure how except maybe for 6.1 any of the Scions when they show up shouldn't be showing up. There's reasonable explanations as to why any of them are where they are when they show up. Except as I said 6.1 where they could have gotten away without Urianger coming along. Though now that I thought about it I hate his inclusion even more as he's literally only there to be an in game reason why one EW treasure map can land you in the Excitatron. Which helps a little(?) as it's better than the meta reason of they need a designated healer. Again I feel the main problem with the we didn't have a proper break from them is the devs never giving us any real indication of time passing. Only to give us the all of ARR to at least the end of 4.0 all happened in a year answer. That then also got followed up with the oh well you can also say how much time really passed on your own as long as certain characters are stuck physically looking the way they are cause we've unfortunately seen some of your rule 34 depictions. As I'm sure that if they had somehow worked in a "many months later" scene there would be less people complaining.

[Lunaxia]

I don't know. There are some out there...

I don't know what Hydaelyn has to do with the Scions, and I can't really contradict something you claim to have seen, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people were either neutral or outright hated the Ascians back then, effectively because there was nothing to like about them. They were pointless, shadowy figures with no background or defined purpose who more or less showed up at the end of any given story to do a bit of moustache-twirling and then depart stage right with no real impact or consequence on the actual plot, to the point I remember one of the most frequent sentiments expressed during the reaction to ShB was "I can't believe they made me care about the Ascians" lol. As for Hydaelyn herself, I mean, I think that's a valid take? As much as people around here like to ignore it, there have been hints dropped here and there about how she may not have been all that she seems, and I think what she did to Minfilia merits a lot of questioning even as they painted her as being okay with it (Argos bearing some odd resemblance to her is one of the things that weirded me out the most to be honest, and I never even like Minfilia that much.) And as for prior to that, well, people theorise, and the big Good being the big Bad is certainly a trope, and Hydaelyn had a certain vagueness about her nature that could invite that speculation, I guess.

It's not really anything to do with the writing giving poor reasons as to them tagging them along as it is outright ignoring the fact the characters are tired and could do with being left alone for a while, especially in a new set of quests that highlights new beginnings. I don't know if specifying any amount of time had passed would have done much to make a difference; for most feeling weary with the characters, I think the break needed to be for a while in our time, lol, and not something simply to be shown by the writers. The frustration was more a matter of the characters having outstayed their welcome than just being annoyed with the plot contradicting itself - expecting or hoping for a reprieve and then not actually having any real break from them.

[SannaR]

snip

My first part of that reply was more about how there were some who've had a vehement disdain for who we later learn was Venat for Hydelean and that it wasn't even because of the whole oh well this is a JRPG with a friendly God so they gotta be bad since 3.2 for a lot. And that there's been a few who held that disdain and mistrust of her from the start. There wasn't many but it was there. Same for the liking of the Ascians even when it was mostly Lahabreha teaching Nero how to spy on one's enemies and sending his black masked cronies after us. Heck people some of that group that liked Nabriales kidnapping Minfillia just cause they hoped he'd kill her cause they hated her so much.

Again I don't think even if we somehow did all of 6.0 until now without any of the major Scions as not part of the story that a good number of those who have this fatigue would have been satisfied with it. As you can't quantify the correct amount of time for some of this group. Unless it was something as long as say Meffrid's absence. Of course who would have known back in base ARR that he'd pop back up during Stormblood. Then again for some they just hate the Scions so much that even that long of a break wouldn't count. I know I shouldn't double down on strawmen, but look at Lyse we didn't have her for most of ShB even in the post patch yet most people who currently have this problem wouldn't count that as enough time. People even would rather exaggerate Y'shtola missing out on a good portion of Stormblood as not even being as long as it was and thus we should dismiss it. Now I'm not sure if you're aware or want to admit that part of the whole ugh why do we still have them group isn't even fatigue related. It's someone's extreme disdain for those characters disguised as fatigue. I'm not saying it's a huge swath of the fatigue crowd, but they are definitely part of that crowd.

An aside note grats Cleretic on being asked to appear on SotR.

[Lyth]

Thanks for pointing out that Llymlean Easter egg. It reminds me of the /comfort gremlins. I hope that they do more things like this in the future.

I know the Loporrits mentioned bringing their technology into the Void at the end of 6.5, but was there a comment in there about the Last Dregs expanding as well? I thought I saw something to that effect but can't seem to find it. Speaking of which, the latest IS quest is great.

I can see why people go off on various predictive tangents, but that's not really a mark of the writing. Also, it doesn't really matter who you add to your party, you will always get pushback over the inclusions and exclusions to your roster. I'm personally thrilled for Erenville's addition. Others might prefer to see someone like Jullus join up instead. Again, this is less about the writing and more about invested players all wrangling for control over its direction.

An aside note grats Cleretic on being asked to appear on SotR.

Oh interesting. I'll have a look at that later.

[Lunaxia]

My first part of that reply was more...

Oh! My bad, you were referring to the first part of my other post. You only quoted the Scion portion with your response and I forgot about the other after falling asleep, lol. I was a bit confused.

But I stand by my original point in terms of Hydaelyn still being a viably suspicious figure, and when I referred to that trope I was including pre-3.2 as well. Some people disagree, but ultimately this is the FF franchise; twists and turns are kind of Their Thing, we have a vague, benevolent deity figure appear to us in a dream at the start of the game who beseeches us to act in her name without revealing much in the way of anything about why or who our foes are, and even in the absence of any overt evidence I think it's only natural that all sorts of theories and speculations start to form on the back of it. We're all different, we all perceive things differently, some people saw and liked Hydaelyn as a kind, motherly goddess figure, and others didn't - no one is wrong, and no one is wrong for holding on to those theories as the game progresses, or for just fundamentally enjoying or disliking a character. The problem is that people around here need to really, really, really stop treating positive perceptions as being of intrinsically more value than negative ones, and using those opinions against others to constantly make light of and undermine what they're saying, when it's such a deeply flawed, underhand and ugly tactic that I will never stop pointing it out when it happens. You're even doing it here, by building on Cleretic's assumption and trying to put the basis for Endwalker's criticism down to "well some people have always really HATED Hydaelyn." Setting aside that's flat out incorrect, and there is [checks briefly] an 880 page thread detailing both why that isn't the case and the problems players actually had with the story that some people are still choosing to be wilfully obtuse over because they can't make a handy strawman out of it - so? Is there anything inherently wrong with that? If having strong feelings on a character somehow renders their point of view incorrect or unreliable, then doesn't everyone here who adores Venat or thought the Ascians were the worst thing ever also also not have a leg to stand on? We're all going to be somewhat biased in some respects because of who we are, our personal preferences and our attitudes towards the world, and pretending you're free of that because you like something is very misguided.

But truthfully I don't think I've even come across one person who took issue with Endwalker who actually had a problem with Hydaelyn prior to the Ancient storyline - most were pretty much ambivalent towards her, so it's a pretty pointless argument to be having anyway.

And I disagree, I think a prolonged break from the Scions would have made a difference. Would it have cured all the problems people have with the characters? No, and I'm sure their return might have elicited some eyerolls, but that comes down to their writing, and the same goes for Lyse and Minfilia. Distance was never going to help them especially, because their core issues were how blandly they were written and the lack of depth or substance they had, and the same goes for the Scions these days. It could help them, if the break brought some new facets of their characters to the table, but the presumption is their character arcs are done, so most people are/ were settling simply for a break to find their return to their roles as plot devices a little more bearable.

But again, we have a return to "some people just hate them!" and ignoring both why people have frustrations with the characters, and the fact that many actually used to have a considerable degree of affection for at least some of them before Endwalker - they just "hate" them, and quite obviously for no reason, so anything they have to say is therefore invalid.

[Cleretic]

An aside note grats Cleretic on being asked to appear on SotR.

It was great fun, and honestly my only disappointment is that the Llymlaen discovery happened after the stream! That would've been a hilarious thing to bring up.

The attack itself is based on fish lore; specifically, the Navigator's Dagger and Navigator's Brand, which laid down the modern interpretation of the tale about Llymlaen that we learn the truth of at the end of the raid series. It's a really clever pull, and I am curious to learn how exactly it slipped into the planning stages.