Revelations from Patch 6.5: "Growing Light", Part 1

[Cleretic]

I think the easiest way to summarize people being mad at Endwalker story-wise is 'hopes got into an unsustainable place with Shadowbringers'. Like, remember how much the playerbase spiked during Shadowbringers, not just because of the quality of Shadowbringers itself (which definitely factored) but also because of a few other events outside of FFXIV that happened during that expansion cycle. So for a lot of people, it was just straight-up their first expansion whatsoever, and therefore Endwalker is their first expansion they're seeing at launch. There's also a smaller (but I think much more verbose) crowd who instead seemed to look at Shadowbringer's new direction specifically around the Ascians and got their hopes up for a very specific direction that was never all that plausible, and are now upset that they didn't get what they wanted. Basically, we're seeing people who got a bit too high on Shadowbringers responding poorly to a return to the mean, the revelation that Endwalker wasn't going to be 'Shadowbringers 2'.

To a degree, I empathize with both--Endwalker wasn't the first expansion I was there to see the release of, but it was the first expansion that I was actively following the leadup to, and I'd already had a nasty realization of 'the writers don't agree with what I think is a good idea' back in Stormblood. I think something difficult but inevitable to learn after something that seems to exactly fit your interests is that the game isn't being made exactly for you: the developers have their own plans, methods and ideas. And those are good plans, methods and ideas--none of us would be here if they weren't--but they aren't yours. I had to learn that on realizing that Endwalker wasn't going to bring me the only two things I thought I wanted (Chemist and Gelmorra); others are being faced with it on realizing the story didn't have the same view on the Ascians' history as they did, or that Hydaelyn was not in fact the villain, or that the storytelling has much more high-fantasy, idealistic sensibilities than they thought it did. (That last one is what surprises me the most, because Shadowbringers is so archetypal high fantasy that it's structured like a Zelda game, and I think has the lowest bodycount of any expansion no matter how you tally it.)

If it turns out that, when the veil drops and they see what FFXIV has been the entire time, they don't like it as much as they thought they did? That's fine; I'm sure it's a bit disappointing for them, but it's a revelation that had to happen, and I hope that either they realize they still like the game, or move on to something they like more.

[Eisi]

And those are good plans, methods and ideas--none of us would be here if they weren't--but they aren't yours.

I think it's important to remember that it's a great thing to not like a story, to subjectively dislike it, to criticize it and to share that with other people. Negativity is not inherently bad.

This is why I disagree with this sentiment that negative judgement is subjective, but positive judgement is somehow objective, because the game is successful.

I believe that if anything successful has to be positively judged and thus all negative judgement equals the personal shortcoming of raging against the world as it is, then the whole effort of writing in and of itself is utterly in vain.

If I were a writer, I would love people shitting on my stories. Because it means, faintly as it may be, they nontheless identified a standard within themselves by which to judge such efforts.

[Lunaxia]

I think the easiest way to summarize people...

I thought we were discussing the patches?

Though I'm just still surprised there are actually people who feel Endwalker was a return to form for the series while Shadowbringers was the outlier in any way other than the reaction it garnered and a marginally more charismatic villain, even if this isn't really the place for that sort of discussion.

And while this is certainly one of your better posts in terms of your reasoning and tone, I'm still really not here for that unfortunate habit of positive = given truth, and criticism something something Ascian sympathisers something. Though ironically you even do it to yourself - raising legitimate points of concern or disappointment that are actually quite popular in the community or at the very least valid and then putting it down as a problem with how you see things and deciding the devs have better judgement purely on the basis they're, well, devs. The state the game is in (and I'm not alluding to EW's original story) and the myriad controversies they've had over the course of the game's life attests to the fact that they can get it wrong, have fairly frequently gotten it wrong, and it's okay to voice that. Making it a problem with the player is kind of weird and borderline gaslighting territory, and I'd rather that be left to certain other users who shall remain nameless.

[Cleretic]

I think it's important to remember that it's a great thing to not like a story, to subjectively dislike it, to criticize it and to share that with other people. Negativity is not inherently bad.

This is why I disagree with this sentiment that negative judgement is subjective, but positive judgement is somehow objective, because the game is successful.

I'm absolutely not saying that, and I'm sorry if it came across like that. My point was that we all agree that FFXIV is a good game, made by people who generally know how to make a good game. That's not because it's some kind of objective truth, but because we wouldn't be here after all these expansions if we didn't agree; the people who don't think FFXIV is a good game, by and large, aren't talking about its fourth expansion.

I think a lot of the people really mad about Endwalker created a mental image of FFXIV that didn't turn out to be accurate. And now, they have to grapple with that.

[Lyth]

Players can only speak for themselves as individuals, even if they coincidentally share the view that a particular portion of the story is weaker. I personally thought that the 6.1-6.5 story arc was middling quality monster-of-the-week fluff on par with Four Lords and Werlyt. That's not particularly surprising, given that these are all stories built around a set of pre-determined primal fights, rather than the reverse. I don't think Shadowbringers changed up the formula. It reinforced it.

The only real difference between expansions is that as people become more invested in the game and story over time, they have more of a personal desire to control its direction. But that shouldn't be interpreted as a 'consensus' around how the story 'ought' to have been written. It just means that there are even more competing interests at play than ever.

And amidst those myriad competing interests, believe it or not, there are still some of us who simply want to see the story that the writing team have to tell.

[SannaR]

I think a lot of the people really mad about Endwalker created a mental image of FFXIV that didn't turn out to be accurate. And now, they have to grapple with that.

To that last part. I'm not sure that group is as big, but then I don't dip my toes in a certain thread and as I've said many a time don't go exploring. Except from some if you were to read a few posts to an outsider it comes off as they were expecting it or even the patch series to be as good as whatever has been deemed a modern classic (a book newer than something like of Mice and Men).

To the patches some felt they were tooo IV, some not enough IV. That they tarnished the stories the Villains from IV had in their own game when there's barely anything of a story in IV for them. That we had to Ssame Street Zero in teaching her what friendship and trust is. Cause you know that's an easy thing to do(It would be like expecting a person who's lived with a life long fear of the water to jump off a high dive five minutes after dragging them to the local pool). Or to some that didn't have enough development. Then there are those who always say the scions have always just gone and done things without asking people in charge that keep on having to either become quite or move the goalposts. When I'm having a rough time thinking of a time they did so. Only to get mad that they're doing the thing they want them to do cause it's slowing down getting to the action. That even when the devs do shorthand the permission getting some of those same people will then complain that we didn't get to see all of it. Cause it hurts the world building. Others still felt that it wasn't FF enough.

Yes the devs have gotten stuff wrong though a lot of the time people say that it's about everything that's not story. Heck the last time the story was this debated over was Stormblood and that was mostly about if parts of it felt rushed or not. Occasionally depending on how you felt about the Doman section.

Then there is the what I feel is the easier to exaggerate if not to just meme on part that it the Scions disbanding. As some if you were to take the exaggeration and memes seriously would want you to believe that the entire group were constantly there the whole time. And yes the complaint about not showing an amount of time having passed since 6.0 to 6.1 is a problem. A problem that I don't think anyone really disagrees with as it's been a problem since the start. Yet I still feel that even if we hadn't seen anyone else but Estinien this entire time until just now some people would still claim there wasn't any real break.

[Lunaxia]

To that last part. I'm not sure that group is as big....

It's not, it's just pretending that feel-good-fluff was always FFXIV's MO and anyone who presumed that more of the nuanced stories we got in in the prior three games would make a return was somehow wishing for Ascian supremacy and Venat's portrayal as a genocidal maniac. It's very boring, but there it is.

Then there is the what I feel is the easier to exaggerate if not to just meme on part that it the Scions disbanding. As some if you were to take the exaggeration and memes seriously would want you to believe that the entire group were constantly there the whole time. And yes the complaint about not showing an amount of time having passed since 6.0 to 6.1 is a problem. A problem that I don't think anyone really disagrees with as it's been a problem since the start. Yet I still feel that even if we hadn't seen anyone else but Estinien this entire time until just now some people would still claim there wasn't any real break.

Probably not, but it's worth remembering we have been stuck with these characters for nearly a decade. And initially, that was actually fine, when they were off doing their own thing and we met up with them occasionally and took them here and there, but after four years of having them constantly pinned to our sides on top of that, I think a lot of players are really, really beyond fatigued with them, to the point a minor break wouldn't change much. They don't even offer anything to the scenes they're in anymore beyond exposition, and in some cases have effectively become flanderised versions of their former selves.

I'm not going to get into the "they said they were disbanding" debate because [incoherent noises], but I think there's a case to be made that it is very weird to not only put that out there (officially, unofficially, whatever) and have the Scions seemingly doing their own thing, then make a big song and dance of ending the previous arc they have always been innately part of and pushing the whole "you're an adventurer again!" schtick and implying you're going to be off on your own journey like we did when we started out... only to drag them back into the MSQ and have them follow us around again when they're not necessary, they don't even have a story to tell anymore and there's nothing tying them to the plot. Even if you didn't pay attention to whether they were actually disbanding or not, it just seemed like a natural course of events to break away from them, at least for a time, but then... surprise, I guess. And not a pleasant one, hence the response.

[Cleretic]

To the patches some felt they were tooo IV, some not enough IV. That they tarnished the stories the Villains from IV had in their own game when there's barely anything of a story in IV for them. That we had to Ssame Street Zero in teaching her what friendship and trust is. Cause you know that's an easy thing to do(It would be like expecting a person who's lived with a life long fear of the water to jump off a high dive five minutes after dragging them to the local pool). Or to some that didn't have enough development. Then there are those who always say the scions have always just gone and done things without asking people in charge that keep on having to either become quite or move the goalposts. When I'm having a rough time thinking of a time they did so. Only to get mad that they're doing the thing they want them to do cause it's slowing down getting to the action. That even when the devs do shorthand the permission getting some of those same people will then complain that we didn't get to see all of it. Cause it hurts the world building. Others still felt that it wasn't FF enough.

Yes the devs have gotten stuff wrong though a lot of the time people say that it's about everything that's not story. Heck the last time the story was this debated over was Stormblood and that was mostly about if parts of it felt rushed or not. Occasionally depending on how you felt about the Doman section.

Yeah, I'd hardly say that the only reasons to ever hate on Endwalker are what I described, but I think that's the big answer you'd get if you ask the question that poster did of 'why do so many people hate Endwalker so much': there's a lot of people more invested in hating Endwalker for what it wasn't than what it was, especially on the official forums, so I think that's the big elephant in the room when talking 'why people don't like Endwalker'.

I think Endwalker's my favorite expansion in terms of MSQ story, but even I'll readily call out what I'd consider its flaws: some parts of the MSQ ran longer than they probably should have (and frustratingly, a smaller amount of parts ran shorter so it wouldn't be an easy fix), the tentpole pieces of side content I feel overfocused on the Ancients to the exclusion of other parts, and the patch MSQ probably could've used a bigger twist or two to throw us off of it just being 'FFIV With More Purple And Better Villains'. But the question of 'why don't people like Endwalker' is looking for more macro-level answers than that, because you and I both know that the hate brigade isn't there because the Labyrinthos revisit was too long.

IN OTHER MYTHS OF THE REALM NEWS: It turns out that Llymlaen has a specific response if someone uses an emote on her, that references fish lore. God damnit, I love it.

https://twitter.com/FSHYbeans/status...39301892874361

[SannaR]

I'm not going to get into the "they said they were disbanding" debate because [incoherent noises], but I think there's a case to be made that it is very weird to not only put that out there (officially, unofficially, whatever) and have the Scions seemingly doing their own thing, then make a big song and dance of ending the previous arc they have always been innately part of and pushing the whole "you're an adventurer again!" schtick and implying you're going to be off on your own journey like we did when we started out... only to drag them back into the MSQ and have them follow us around again when they're not necessary, they don't even have a story to tell anymore and there's nothing tying them to the plot. Even if you didn't pay attention to whether they were actually disbanding or not, it just seemed like a natural course of events to break away from them, at least for a time, but then... surprise, I guess. And not a pleasant one, hence the response.

I don't know. There are some out there who have had a high level of mistrust if not outright loathing of Hydelean since at least 3.2 all due to that patch's key art. Hell some even before that. They might deny it, but I do remember some of those still around that were very much "She's gotta be evil, trust me Bro" prior to that patch's artwork. That they had as much love for the Ascians even back then as deep as Denishia's disdain for Emet-Selch.

I'm probably going to have to agree to disagree on the Flanderising. I'm not sure how except maybe for 6.1 any of the Scions when they show up shouldn't be showing up. There's reasonable explanations as to why any of them are where they are when they show up. Except as I said 6.1 where they could have gotten away without Urianger coming along. Though now that I thought about it I hate his inclusion even more as he's literally only there to be an in game reason why one EW treasure map can land you in the Excitatron. Which helps a little(?) as it's better than the meta reason of they need a designated healer. Again I feel the main problem with the we didn't have a proper break from them is the devs never giving us any real indication of time passing. Only to give us the all of ARR to at least the end of 4.0 all happened in a year answer. That then also got followed up with the oh well you can also say how much time really passed on your own as long as certain characters are stuck physically looking the way they are cause we've unfortunately seen some of your rule 34 depictions. As I'm sure that if they had somehow worked in a "many months later" scene there would be less people complaining.

[SannaR]

I need to know who thought of or even wanted to put something like that into Llymlean's fight. I'm tempted to try it myself. I'll just have to make sure she's not casting or doing an ability. Anyone going to EU fan fest who knows about that needs to try and ask the devs about it.