Using BLU to end the war

[vetch]

First time in memory that someone's actually trolling Ren and it's the one time he doesn't call it out.

[Renathras]

First time in memory that someone's actually trolling Ren and it's the one time he doesn't call it out.

Believe it or not, I give people the benefit of the doubt quite often.

Which should tell you how bad it is when I do call it out.

But this is a derail.

[ForsakenRoe]

I've made it clear enough times, you still being unclear is a willful decision. I'm not sure how to explain it to you better since you're so resistant to understanding it. And "room for growth" does not require "DPS rotation expansion". Not giving WHM a damage rotation has plenty of "room for growth".

Please give two examples, a 96 skill and a 100 skill, that you're thinking of that would make WHM gameplay more fun for both casual and veteran alike, because I'm like 99% sure we'd be back to business as usual faster than with Aquaveil

As for Aero 3, sure let's add Aero 3 again, I don't think anyone has an issue with that. 24s DOT though, and you don't like DOTs. So instead, we could have it be a 24s CD burst damage CD. Oh, now it's functionally identical to what I've previously suggested with Banish, just with a longer CD. Which is the point of contention it seems: My suggestions would be agreeable by the looks of it, if I wasn't so adamant on how many Glare's they remove. if I had left Dia at 30s and Banish was a 24s CD, that'd be completely fine, because that's functionally identical to 'return Aero 3', it's specifically because the timers were lower, meaning pressing not-Glare more often, that was the contentious part. Which is what I find so weird about it all

[ty_taurus]

Believe it or not, I give people the benefit of the doubt quite often.

Which should tell you how bad it is when I do call it out.

But this is a derail.

I'm honestly so done with you that I legitimately don't care anymore. I'm so done that this is my new stance:

I want Sage to be reworked into a hyper-offensive fun healer that adequately responds to all the criticism that the healing role receives, and I want the other three healers to rot. I want them stripped down as much as they can possibly be and be left like that for the rest of the game's lifespan and that the only fun healer is Sage. The others will never change from this point. They'll only get more and more healing cooldowns they don't need and that's it.

You get to have White Mage, Scholar, and Astrologian, and we get Sage. That work for you, Ren?

No, I'm not trolling. I'm not being sarcastic. I genuinely want this now because I'm sick and tired of you and arguing with you. To everyone else who recognizes what good and bad job design looks like who will complain about my stance, you have my permission to cry about it.

Peace.

[ForsakenRoe]

No, I'm not trolling. I'm not being sarcastic. I genuinely want this now because I'm sick and tired of you and arguing with you.

'Yes, time circles endlessly
The hands of fate trained ahead
(pointing, to the edge)

All things change,
Drawn to the flame,
To rise from the ashes

To begin, we first must see the end (whoa)'

[ty_taurus]

'Yes, time circles endlessly
The hands of fate trained ahead
(pointing, to the edge)

All things change,
Drawn to the flame,
To rise from the ashes

To begin, we first must see the end (whoa)'

I'm sorry, you have a good sense of what makes good game design. But I can't continue or I will lose my mind and run away to a coven.

[Aravell]

No, I'm not trolling. I'm not being sarcastic. I genuinely want this now because I'm sick and tired of you and arguing with you. To everyone else who recognizes what good and bad job design looks like who will complain about my stance, you have my permission to cry about it.

Peace.

Will miss bouncing ideas off you, but do what you have to do for your mental health.

[fulminating]

For the 96 skill I think some kind of party wide pain split style effect. Potentially in % so as to be gear agnostic. Everyone can donate some hp to the clueless tank in dungeons to bring it up to 75% or in more advanced content perhaps it would be helpful if they put tank autos back as more than a gimmick.

For 100 a button that gives everyone a silly hat. No other combat effect.

Also bye ty, hope you feel better

[ForsakenRoe]

For the 96 skill I think some kind of party wide pain split style effect. Potentially in % so as to be gear agnostic. Everyone can donate some hp to the clueless tank in dungeons to bring it up to 75% or in more advanced content perhaps it would be helpful if they put tank autos back as more than a gimmick.

For 100 a button that gives everyone a silly hat. No other combat effect.

Spirit Link Totem? I wouldn't be completely against the idea as a whole, but I feel like it's more of an AST thing (Collective Unconscious for example would probably fit as a name). Or maybe a SCH one. Either way, the flaw in the idea is that Spirit Link allows for an uncapped number of party members to have their HP percentages equalized, in a game where only a certain number of players can be hit by AOE heals. Effectively, it allows the team to turn a strong 'this affects 5 out of 20 players' HOT, into a weaker one that is affecting everyone in the ring. Here, we have non-limited AOE healing (well, there's a limit, but it's far beyond what the party of 8 allows for, like 32 or 36 something) so we don't need to worry as much. The only thing we'd get out of this would be like, effectively turning a hard hitting prey or Tankbuster into a stack marker. Which isn't terrible per se, but it's also not going to see 'wow that's cool' moments in lower content really. I think if anything, the idea of 'turns not-AOE into actually-AOE' is best used as a Eukrasia style toggle for saving hotbar space, perhaps. Reminiscent of using the right button on DPAD to change your cure spells from 'hits one' to 'hits whole party but is weaker'. So instead of having Cure, Cure2, Medica, Medica2, Regen, we could have Cure 2 (cure1 upgrades), Regen, and the 'make it AOE' button, which changes Cure 2 to Cure 3, and Regen into Medica 2 (with different names, probably). Something like that, but on a new healer probably

I'll support the 100 skill though, I want a silly hat. Oh wait, we can't have that either, because SE probably wouldn't remember to make it work with Hrothgar heads

edit: thinking about it a bit more, I'd say it fits way more with AST. Consider, P10S stomps (the ones that apply a bleed), have the link hit the party and both tanks (or just one), and split the bleed from like 18k per tick on each tank across the whole party, to make it like, 2.5k per tick. And then use one of AST's several 60s OGCDs (of which two are currently HOTs) to counteract that bleed

[Renathras]

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised they haven't said they're going to do a SCH rework. They announce reworks when a Job either doesn't fit current design (PLD, probably AST), or when it's "perfect" and they don't know where to go with it/what to add to it (SMN, DRG). SCH is really solid overall right now, which makes me wonder what they're planning to do with it.

Please give two examples, a 96 skill and a 100 skill, that you're thinking of that would make WHM gameplay more fun for both casual and veteran alike, because I'm like 99% sure we'd be back to business as usual faster than with Aquaveil

I CAN, the issue is to whom are we appealing? People like you or people like me? I doubt you'd be happy with anything short of a total rework, so there likely aren't a mere 2 abilities that could be added to make you see the gameplay as more fun (without changing anything else, of course).

As for Aero 3, sure let's add Aero 3 again, I don't think anyone has an issue with that.

I should hope not, at this point, considering how many people have asked for it. I don't like DoTs. I deal with them in moderation. Though I suspect it won't make the people asking for it happy, since I suspect they want something more than what it offers and it's a proxy for their general dissatisfaction. Meaning if it was given, they'd probably realize it doesn't actually address their needs. Conversely, there are some people that want Elemental magics back, and as soon as it upgraded to Banish, would suddenly find it unsatisfying. But at least we'd know one way or the other, and some people might be happy with it.

I'm honestly so done with you that I legitimately don't care anymore. I'm so done that this is my new stance:

To be fair, this is how I've felt towards you since that one major incident. I just treat you a lot more cordially and actually respect you. I've noticed over time that you seem to drift between two main moods, one being reasonable and rational where you do a lot of good things like your surveys and make interesting proposals I can give fair analysis of and provide fair analysis to suggestions others make...and then the other end of the spectrum where you basically become an internet troll and heckler. And it seems contingent on nothing that happens here (e.g. not me) which led me to think it was just irl stuff that you go through sometimes, sometimes in the middle of a conversation unbidden and unprovoked. Once I recognized this pattern, it's why I stopped harping on you (and sometimes engaging with you at all) when you were in those moods since I figured it was something personal going on and to leave it be. Regardless:

1) I've never opposed SGE being reworked into a hyper-offensive healer model. I've directly suggested this dozens of times, and it's a core aspect to my model. So why would I be opposed to it?

2) The other part of your "suggestion" is borne of pettiness and won't happen anyway, so I won't bother addressing it.

3) Honestly, no, it doesn't work. Since that isn't what I've suggested. My own suggestion has long been the same; WHM to have its EW form with a few modifications (Pro-shell, Aero 3, and some way to make some GCD healing damage neutral, something like Acceleration on RDM where it's not unlimited but allows use of those other buttons collecting dust), SCH to be restored to its SB version while retaining the improvements made in ShB and EW, and AST to be...something that AST players like. But you already know this, so I'm wasting my breath saying it yet again.

4) Strange how you fight so hard for something, refuse every offer of compromise, no matter how generous to you and reasonable it is, then you just decide one day to blow up the baby and the bathwater all at once.

If you had, at any point prior, actually read and considered seriously - as opposed to writing off automatically - what I've proposed over the last two years or so, it's far more moderate and equitable than what you're saying here is.

.

For what it's worth, I like a lot of your ideas and consider you an intelligent person, which is why I like engaging with you when you're in the constructive of your two modes. And for what it's worth, I want a lot of the things you do. Just not all of them. Hence: Compromise. It's not a dirty word.

Though I do know how you feel. It's why I left the healer forum for a while earlier in the year. I just got tired of dealing with the CONSTANT attacks and harassment and inability of people to engage in good faith discussions.

Anyway, wish you the best, whether you stay here or not.