What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Renathras]

...

Hm...my thoughts on some of these, because I don't disagree with you entirely on the rest (some are things we don't know the answers to, like we don't know what she DID tell the Convocation, and we only suspect what she did and did not say):

A. New life - we're shown in the short story where Emet has to kill the Phoenix (and I think an Elpis sidequest) that the Ancients didn't have the power to create life entirely. They could make a body that could live, but souls were not something they could create or destroy - or control. When they created life, sometimes a soul would come to inhabit it. The Ancients had no actual power over that, and the soul was independent of their actions. Meaning when they took those lives, they were not destroying something that was wholly their own creation. That was something that the mentioned in Elpis as well, and has somewhat...uncomfortable implications if you think about it. Imagine if you found out, for example, that the AI we're experimenting in the real world received souls once they had developed passed a certain level. Would "deleting" them still be allowable? Could they still be considered "property" of their owners? That's where we get to here, and it's philosophically uncomfortable to think about, honestly.

B. Again, there's no clarity at all that the Ancients WOULD HAVE gone after Meteon. Think back to the cutscene where Venat confronts them and tells them that their society wasn't ever perfect, it always had sorrow, but they insisted it was and had been perfect, raise their hands, and make offerings of live to get their "perfect" society back. Such people as believe their society is perfect and their god absolute would never listen to someone telling them about a threat at the edge of the universe. And even if they HAD listened, they would have insisted it was not their problem and that Zodiark would protect them. I don't see any rational for appraising that situation otherwise. So no, they would not have gone to deal with Meteon, and there's currently zero evidence that they would ever have done so at any point.

C. Sorta on the Nbirun. Keep in mind they were only saved AFTER their actions, not before them. It's unclear they would have been willing to accept the answer before the destruction of their society.

D. While you point out that not all life would be sentient, there is a lot of life that was sentient that they would not have seen as such because it was not at their level. Recall, for example, that Azem went rogue to save an island from a volcano while the Convocation was more than fine with letting everything there die. And that was a natural disaster, where here we're talking about them having made the conscious decision to cultivate and then mass murder all that life. Emet's position on the Sundered is probably very similar to how Ancient society as a whole would have viewed lesser, but still sentient, life. Regardless, though, it would still have been mass genocide.

E. The Echo didn't exist before the Sundering, so they could not have been shown things through it. The Echo in lore came into existence after the Sundering, where a lesser being with a portion of a soul of one of the Ancients who lived through the Final Days had those memories ever so slightly awakened by seeing a Starshower, specifically. This awakening to a bit of the soul's true nature is what allows all the Echo powers and protection from Tempering, even with the artificial Echo. And not all Echo powers allow walking in others' memories. The 1.0 WoL could actually interact with people in the past directly, and Krile can speak with animals through hers, for examples of other powers it grants.

F. Regardless, the scene with her talking to the crowd was meant to show that they were beyond reason. They would not have listened, no matter what she told or showed them, and they believed their world a perfect paradise and Zodiark a perfect god, so they would not have done anything about Meteon, too. That scene was meant to show how they were too far gone/too deep in their belief to accept any alternative. I think that was what that scene WAS trying to show us, though not everyone got it. Surely you've known someone in life that got so bought into something, no matter what you told them about it not being great, they wouldn't listen or would hand wave away your arguments? Basically, at that point, the Ancients had become an extremist cult. That was also displayed in the scene where she makes her arguments and they turn as one, raise their arms as one, and pray to Zodiark that they will surrender their life force to him if he will give them back their perfect world. That they were even willing to have a mass ritual suicide. I thought it was pretty clear what the scene was saying then - that they were beyond reason and beyond changing course.

G. I don't think the story showed her as some perfect person. She was a loving hero, she clearly loved people, even while Sundering, and she felt terrible for what she did. That doesn't make her PERFECT, but it does not require perfection to be a "loving hero". It only requires love (which she showed) and heroic action (in this case, self-sacrifice, which it also showed). Her long walk scene, she's beaten and battered and covered in blood, possibly not all her own. It made it pretty clear that she suffered immensely for her decisions and actions, but felt she had to take them anyway. You may disagree with that - though as I say up above, the narrative makes it pretty clear she was correct and the "what if" alternatives were not things that actually would have happened had she not Sundered them or had she come to them with everything she knew - but the narrative did make that clear in the telling. She shouldn't be painted as a villain because she wasn't a villain. She was painted in a similar light as Emet in the end, which is about right. She wasn't some cruel and heartless person who did everything for selfish gain - what makes a villain. She was a person trying to do the best she could with what she knew. And the story shows that she was ultimately right in most of what she said (and the only reason I don't say all is because the narrative does leave out some things so we don't know the rest).

I get this view that she wasn't perfect, and I agree with that view.

I don't get the argument that she was a villain. And notwithstanding that, her choices and decisions in the end were treated a lot like Emet's - as someone trying to do the best they could with what they knew who was heroic and suffered greatly for the sake of others. In the end, even Emet was treated that same way, notwithstanding being galled by it.

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I don't think we are expected to praise her for it, nor that anyone did (in the narrative).

I think we are only shown the why so that we can understand it, and that it was the best she could do with what she knew and what resources she had to take action with.

Perfect heroes are boring. Venat isn't perfect. But she was caring and loving, and she was a hero. Just as, in his own way, Emet was. And the game in the Alpha/Omega questline even lets you, the player, personally make your own judgement on that question. Which, personally, I thought was a nice touch.

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Oh, I should note one final line, this one from Emet-Selch in the cutscene when you summon him and Hythlodeus to help:

<looking at the WoL>
"Still, you must be commended. Our methods would not have brought mandkind this far."

In other words, he's saying the Ancients would not have made it there, even had they decided they needed to go after Meteon. So the "what if" argument of "Maybe they could have made it" is put to bed by Emet himself, who said they would not have. And if anyone WOULD know, it would be him.

[Nayukhuut]

Snip

Sorry, your posts are getting a little long to address entirely. I know you CAN skirt the forum length limits, but I dislike constantly doing so. I will try and respond to a bit.

~

A. They create life that has aether, and that aether is what they needed. Again, it's really no different than us harvesting animals and plants for our own end. A thing both Sundered and real life people do.

But yes, it was up to the planet whether it got a soul or not.

B. Why wouldn't they have gone after her? They only came up with Zodiark because they were trying to stop the assault on their world. They had no idea what was causing that assault. There was also zero reason to think they would not have gone after the root cause if they had known.

C. Unclear, but still a chance. Still pretty far from the definite "The Ancients were screwed because of this" argument that tends to go around.

D. We, again, do not know that for sure. They could have easily been meaning to sacrifice things like plants, elementals, animals, etc. We don't know. Beyond that, I would argue that their reverence for life was more than the Sundered have. The Sundered are constantly killing each other for much less.

E. It absolutely did. Venat was the one who showed us how to channel it when we saw the flashback with with Hermes setting off his creations. Our Echo is basically just weaker versions of things a lot of Ancients could already do.

F. I don't even know where to start with this. Talking to traumatised people and being mad they won't listen to you is not an excuse to force your will on them. They fell back on Zodiark because that is all they thought they had. The Ancients were intelligent and scientific. There is no reason to think they wouldn't have gone after the cause of their problems.

As for wanting their world back, why is it bad when they want a return to normalcy, but okay when say, the 13th does? The 13th wants their old world back, but we support Zero and Golbez as they go to try and fix it. Screw the Ancients, though, right?

G. We are just gonna have to agree to disagree here, since I do not think she was heroic. I think she was a cowardly ideologue who enforced her will on others. She claimed that mankind should stand on their own, and was angry when people didn't agree with her. She destroyed the world and set up mechanisms to keep her broken world in place because reality actively fights against the unnatural state she put the planet in.

Venat is not a hero, and she's not a good person. She certainly is only loving if you agree with her. If you don't, well, ahh well. Your life doesn't matter.

~

And yes, I am aware I have more faith in the Ancients than Emet did in the end. But please do also remember that all the the Ancients and later the Asians could never have formulated a proper plan because Venat hid the truth from them.

[Halivel]

G. We are just gonna have to agree to disagree here, since I do not think she was heroic. I think she was a cowardly ideologue who enforced her will on others. She claimed that mankind should stand on their own, and was angry when people didn't agree with her. She destroyed the world and set up mechanisms to keep her broken world in place because reality actively fights against the unnatural state she put the planet in.

I feel like, ironically enough, the one who apparently was trying to actually be heroic was the current Azem of the time (aka unsundered WoL). We don't know where they were during the last days and what exactly they did, but we know they denied both Convocation and Venat's plans. And judging by what we know about them from the side stories (specifically the one where they went as far as stealing Ifrit concept to save an island from a falling meteor) it's honestly safe to assume that they tried to do something. Obviously, those actions weren't successfull... the question is, what could've been if Venat didn't keep the truth to herself. It's sad to think that there was at least one person with mind creative enough to come up with crazy emergency plans and said person simply wasn't given any chance to fight the root problem in a targeted way.

[Nayukhuut]

I feel like, ironically enough, the one who apparently was trying to actually be heroic was the current Azem of the time (aka unsundered WoL). We don't know where they were during the last days and what exactly they did, but we know they denied both Convocation and Venat's plans. And judging by what we know about them from the side stories (specifically the one where they went as far as stealing Ifrit concept to save an island from a falling meteor) it's honestly safe to assume that they tried to do something. Obviously, those actions weren't successfull... the question is, what could've been if Venat didn't keep the truth to herself. It's sad to think that there was at least one person with mind creative enough to come up with crazy emergency plans and said person simply wasn't given any chance to fight the root problem in a targeted way.

I liked that too. They didn't agree with either plan, and went off to do whatever they wanted to do. Logically I know it is because the writing staff is leaving it vague on purpose, but I appreciate that I can at least pretend Azem was out there trying to save their people until the last second. It's what I would have done in that situation. Heck, it is what I wanted to do at the end of Elpis.

[Halivel]

I liked that too. They didn't agree with either plan, and went off to do whatever they wanted to do. Logically I know it is because the writing staff is leaving it vague on purpose, but I appreciate that I can at least pretend Azem was out there trying to save their people until the last second. It's what I would have done in that situation. Heck, it is what I wanted to do at the end of Elpis.

Same here. My character frankly is pretty angry with Venat's decisions (although MSQ obviously wouldn't allow to show that, but who cares, it's my character, I know what he'd think, say and do in such a situation).

[BRVV]

Same here. My character frankly is pretty angry with Venat's decisions (although MSQ obviously wouldn't allow to show that, but who cares, it's my character, I know what he'd think, say and do in such a situation).

Blink twice if you are forced to aggree with Venat by the shadow Sharlayan government

[Halivel]

Blink twice if you are forced to aggree with Venat by the shadow Sharlayan government

*blinks aggressively*

[Nayukhuut]

Same here. My character frankly is pretty angry with Venat's decisions (although MSQ obviously wouldn't allow to show that, but who cares, it's my character, I know what he'd think, say and do in such a situation).

Agreed. I have basically just internalised that my character is playing nice for appearances sake, but inwardly is set in stone with his resolve to make it so another Venat never comes to pass.

That or I just go with a personal headcannon of us having been Tempered by Venat, since it is the only thing that really makes our outward actions make sense. Game likes to shut that one down, but it would absolutely explain why us and the Scions are okay with Venat doing things we would be horrified to see any other character do.

Blink twice if you are forced to aggree with Venat by the shadow Sharlayan government

Sadly the mask I wear obscures it, but I am indeed blinking twice. :P

Really sad part is that we are basically the shadow government at this point. Way more story beats than I would like have ended with our group saying we can never tell the world because of their own good and this has to be kept a secret.