What makes a good Job mechanically?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Non-convoluted rotations for me.



Monk is annoying because it has optimal drift windows. All the jobs are currently annoying because of how strict the rotations are for optimal dps due to the 2 min buff windows. Get slightly out of alignment and your dps tanks.



That's just not fun. I don't want to make sloppy play good, but it shouldn't need to be this strict either.

[Amarande]

Non-convoluted rotations for me.

Monk is annoying because it has optimal drift windows. All the jobs are currently annoying because of how strict the rotations are for optimal dps due to the 2 min buff windows. Get slightly out of alignment and your dps tanks.

That's just not fun. I don't want to make sloppy play good, but it shouldn't need to be this strict either.

Mood here. On top of that you have some jobs' primary gearing objective as a result being to absolutely micro manage SkS (as in needing one of the few specific exact GCDs that divide exactly evenly into 120s) so that their big hits land exactly on time.

SAM went from being one of my fave DPS in Stormblood to "ugh I hate this" territory in Shadowbringers and the GCD management (not to mention artificial suboptimal filler based thereupon) for the sake of aligning Tsubame was one of the biggest drivers. Wasn't this whole thing why they got rid of Accuracy, because having to micro manage a specific stat that exactly (unlike the "the more the better" universality of all the other stats) was miserable? (Heck. Even WoW got rid of its multiple flavors of Hit Rating for that reason. When even Blizzard decides something is too unfun ...)

I main DNC these days and I'm not sure if we're supposed to do the same for Tillana or not (to be fair, I'm not sure there's much of anything static about DNC with how many random proc things you have to fire off, other than trying to do your dances on time every cooldown, which combined with how much depends on your dance partner's performance rather than your own makes it perfect for an okay-but-not-great player like myself, lol).

IMO, it seems like optimally, most classes should get the vast majority of their performance relatively easily by simply doing the holy trinity of "obvious button is obvious" "keep your GCD rolling" and "don't clip your GCD by overweaving" and then get a little bit of extra performance wiggle for the "super tryhard" types to show off, although given that serious players usually rank based on percentile competition rather than raw performance, I'm not sure how much it would help the culture at this point, either.

As for the "everything is a DPS" thing: it would be nice if the Tank and especially Healer roles were more emphasized as well, but I am also after many years of gaming not entirely sure how or even if this is practically feasible.

Healer, in particular, needs to be able to pull off saves, otherwise you're just a maintenance babysitter for predictable routine damage, which actually explains a lot of the discontent among the healer crowd.

Personally, I like WHM for things like it being comfy for some solo tasks, especially Solo Duties which historically were very tense on DPS while healers' self sustain eased the stress a lot, but yeah ... you can't save anyone these days, because everything that's not an instakill comes with a punishment mechanic now, and if it DOESN'T have a punishment mechanic, well ... something happened to player culture in the past 15 years or so and I'm not too thrilled with it. Used to be that standing in the fire was universally condemned - now unless there is some punishment OTHER than straight non-oneshot damage, it's actually expected to the point that you're out of touch if you complain about it. Heck, even Vulns often don't cut it anymore, which is why so many fights have those awful damage downs (or just more straight instakills) ...

[Shurrikhan]

Mood here. On top of that you have some jobs' primary gearing objective as a result being to absolutely micro manage SkS (as in needing one of the few specific exact GCDs that divide exactly evenly into 120s) so that their big hits land exactly on time.

SAM went from being one of my fave DPS in Stormblood to "ugh I hate this" territory in Shadowbringers and the GCD management (not to mention artificial suboptimal filler based thereupon) for the sake of aligning Tsubame was one of the biggest drivers.

We already had GCD alignment for the sake of aligning old Hagakure and Higanbana, though, complete with suboptimal filler based thereupon.

Had TG been usable for 5s after your most recent Iaijutsu cast or until you again generated Sen, the two would have had near identical gameplay in terms of centering our rotation around their milestones.



Personally, I enjoyed both for that same reason you seem to dislike them, mostly. But I preferred Hagakure over Tsubame simply because I frequently get high packet loss, which could then eat either of those two abilities on press, and I could at many GCD tiers give myself more time before overcapping Sen to get Hagakure off with minimal and basically linear opportunity cost (at least unless I outright consume Sen via IJ or overcap them), whereas Tsubame would mean having to wait another 9 whole GCDs without Meikyo to Kaeshi: Midare because you only had that immediate next GCD in which to use it.

And... there wasn't much good reason for that stricture beyond just the skill looking slightly cooler with no other weaponskills between them. The ceiling would be very slightly higher, actually, if you could Tsubame up to a few GCDs later, even if "skill gap" between basic failure and no basic failure were less.


For me, perfect would just be the ability to store Tsubame either until next available Iaijutsu (which would allow for button consolidation, if you used TG's CD alike to a charge timer laid over the top of Iaijutsu's icon), or just to be held indefinitely (which is of more interesting use to dungeons, PvP, and other content including a greater number of initial engagements and/or targets with lower TTK).

In that system, leave Hagakure as an at-cost option of 2 GCDs' cooldown, but give an upgrade to Hagakure, too, with each upgrade or new action that increases its opportunity cost, such as by giving it an increasing chance to grant 5 more Kenki per Sen. That way it doesn't go from an at-cost "option" increasingly towards an outright "trap".

[Eisi]

Non-convoluted rotations for me.



Monk is annoying because it has optimal drift windows.

This is so horrible to read. I love Optimal Drift Monk and to know that players find it annoying and not fun like me breaks my heart. I just love how adaptable Monk is and how it's not just a rigid 1-2-3-4-5 but instead varies based on priority. You can always easily get back into the flow from downtime. All I wish is to build a bit of natural variance into the kit via rng in for example the timers.

[Shurrikhan]

Non-convoluted rotations for me.

Monk is annoying because it has optimal drift windows.

Wait, how is Optimal Drift convoluted? It's just trying not to waste Twin/Demo potential. It's therefore variable, yes, but still entirely intuitive.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Wait, how is Optimal Drift convoluted? It's just trying not to waste Twin/Demo potential. It's therefore variable, yes, but still entirely intuitive.

For you maybe. I didn't find the infographic to really explain it well. Maybe because it constantly mentions brotherhood but never shows where brotherhood is used. I'm missing a reference point there that I need to understand it.


Some people count gcds mid fight I guess. I don't have the capacity to do that while dealing with the rotation itself and mechanics.

[Shurrikhan]

For you maybe. I didn't find the infographic to really explain it well. Maybe because it constantly mentions brotherhood but never shows where brotherhood is used. I'm missing a reference point there that I need to understand it.


Some people count gcds mid fight I guess. I don't have the capacity to do that while dealing with the rotation itself and mechanics.

You... do not need to do that for Optimal Drift anyways...

Admittedly, the image overcomplicates this. You're just trying, ultimately, to meet four guidelines simultaneously:

1. "Get near maximal (GCD) potency under each RoF",
2. "Don't delay RoF unless it would allow for an extra Leaden or Demo under RoF, and by no more than a GCD",
3. "Don't let Demo or Twin fall off", and
4. "Don't clip Demo by more than a single tick per minute."

The "Drift" part just notes that (at the BiS GCD speed) you're not going to start each RoF on the same GCD. Instead, optimally, it will... drift.

Tbf, though, if you increase your SkS quite a bit further, you can meet those criteria without actually having to shift things around. You just end up doing Opo->Twin->PB->RoF->Opo->Opo->Opo->Phantom->Demolish->Opo instead for your odd-minute bursts instead while every even minute runs from Demolish to Demolish and ends in Phoenix (and, with enough speed, a final Leaden falls under RoF).

But... Crit is king for a reason, so the max damage from that rotation is faintly less. If you like being a speed demon and dislike having much drift, though, you may as well go for that.

[Renathras]

You... do not need to do that for Optimal Drift anyways...

Admittedly, the image overcomplicates this. You're just trying, ultimately, to meet four guidelines simultaneously:

1. "Get near maximal (GCD) potency under each RoF",
2. "Don't delay RoF unless it would allow for an extra Leaden or Demo under RoF, and by no more than a GCD",
3. "Don't let Demo or Twin fall off", and
4. "Don't clip Demo by more than a single tick per minute."

The "Drift" part just notes that (at the BiS GCD speed) you're not going to start each RoF on the same GCD. Instead, optimally, it will... drift.

Tbf, though, if you increase your SkS quite a bit further, you can meet those criteria without actually having to shift things around. You just end up doing Opo->Twin->PB->RoF->Opo->Opo->Opo->Phantom->Demolish->Opo instead for your odd-minute bursts instead while every even minute runs from Demolish to Demolish and ends in Phoenix (and, with enough speed, a final Leaden falls under RoF).

But... Crit is king for a reason, so the max damage from that rotation is faintly less. If you like being a speed demon and dislike having much drift, though, you may as well go for that.

...

You know, as per my norms, I am 100% glad a Job like that is in this game for people that just that sort of thing.

...but holy hell am I glad that not every Job is anything like that. XD If you'll excuse me, I need to go re-iron my smooth monkey brain after reading that...

[Shurrikhan]

...

You know, as per my norms, I am 100% glad a Job like that is in this game for people that just that sort of thing.

...but holy hell am I glad that not every Job is anything like that. XD If you'll excuse me, I need to go re-iron my smooth monkey brain after reading that...

It's seriously not hard. It largely boils down to "use Lunar (first) when able; else Solar", and just doing whatever makes sense during Solar GCDs.

Which becomes clear after just trying out Monk on a testing dummy a few times.

The same things that let/make it "drift" (at BiS GCD speeds) are also what leave it intuitive: you can swap out what you will, so long as your PBs have AllSamex3 (ideally, AllOpo, as anything else is a huge waste) or AllDifferentx3.

The moves I pointed out before aren't something that needs to be memorized; they're just what happens to occur at high GCD speeds, again allowing for a consistent per 2min loop.

[Renathras]

Which becomes clear after just trying out Monk on a testing dummy a few times.

Not an insult, just a question:

Are you one of those people who can sit down with a musical instrument, play a song once, then never have to reference sheet music again? Or even not have to in the first place?

Because there are some Human beings with incredible minds that can do insane things...and then there's everyone else. I'm wondering if perhaps you're more on the savant side of things.

Because I've played around with MNK on target dummies. The 21 step basic rotation I get just fine. Soon as the Nadis were added, "I need an adult" started playing in my head. Then I started reading about stuff like the double solar opener and your "It's easy" optimal drift and...

...yeah, no it didn't become clear.
At all.

Still isn't.

But I'm fine not touching MNK, so I accept that. There are other Jobs in the game I can enjoy playing instead.