What makes a good Job mechanically?

[Shurrikhan]

Non-convoluted rotations for me.

Monk is annoying because it has optimal drift windows.

Wait, how is Optimal Drift convoluted? It's just trying not to waste Twin/Demo potential. It's therefore variable, yes, but still entirely intuitive.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Wait, how is Optimal Drift convoluted? It's just trying not to waste Twin/Demo potential. It's therefore variable, yes, but still entirely intuitive.

For you maybe. I didn't find the infographic to really explain it well. Maybe because it constantly mentions brotherhood but never shows where brotherhood is used. I'm missing a reference point there that I need to understand it.


Some people count gcds mid fight I guess. I don't have the capacity to do that while dealing with the rotation itself and mechanics.

[Shurrikhan]

For you maybe. I didn't find the infographic to really explain it well. Maybe because it constantly mentions brotherhood but never shows where brotherhood is used. I'm missing a reference point there that I need to understand it.


Some people count gcds mid fight I guess. I don't have the capacity to do that while dealing with the rotation itself and mechanics.

You... do not need to do that for Optimal Drift anyways...

Admittedly, the image overcomplicates this. You're just trying, ultimately, to meet four guidelines simultaneously:

1. "Get near maximal (GCD) potency under each RoF",
2. "Don't delay RoF unless it would allow for an extra Leaden or Demo under RoF, and by no more than a GCD",
3. "Don't let Demo or Twin fall off", and
4. "Don't clip Demo by more than a single tick per minute."

The "Drift" part just notes that (at the BiS GCD speed) you're not going to start each RoF on the same GCD. Instead, optimally, it will... drift.

Tbf, though, if you increase your SkS quite a bit further, you can meet those criteria without actually having to shift things around. You just end up doing Opo->Twin->PB->RoF->Opo->Opo->Opo->Phantom->Demolish->Opo instead for your odd-minute bursts instead while every even minute runs from Demolish to Demolish and ends in Phoenix (and, with enough speed, a final Leaden falls under RoF).

But... Crit is king for a reason, so the max damage from that rotation is faintly less. If you like being a speed demon and dislike having much drift, though, you may as well go for that.

[Renathras]

You... do not need to do that for Optimal Drift anyways...

Admittedly, the image overcomplicates this. You're just trying, ultimately, to meet four guidelines simultaneously:

1. "Get near maximal (GCD) potency under each RoF",
2. "Don't delay RoF unless it would allow for an extra Leaden or Demo under RoF, and by no more than a GCD",
3. "Don't let Demo or Twin fall off", and
4. "Don't clip Demo by more than a single tick per minute."

The "Drift" part just notes that (at the BiS GCD speed) you're not going to start each RoF on the same GCD. Instead, optimally, it will... drift.

Tbf, though, if you increase your SkS quite a bit further, you can meet those criteria without actually having to shift things around. You just end up doing Opo->Twin->PB->RoF->Opo->Opo->Opo->Phantom->Demolish->Opo instead for your odd-minute bursts instead while every even minute runs from Demolish to Demolish and ends in Phoenix (and, with enough speed, a final Leaden falls under RoF).

But... Crit is king for a reason, so the max damage from that rotation is faintly less. If you like being a speed demon and dislike having much drift, though, you may as well go for that.

...

You know, as per my norms, I am 100% glad a Job like that is in this game for people that just that sort of thing.

...but holy hell am I glad that not every Job is anything like that. XD If you'll excuse me, I need to go re-iron my smooth monkey brain after reading that...

[Silhart]

For you maybe. I didn't find the infographic to really explain it well. Maybe because it constantly mentions brotherhood but never shows where brotherhood is used. I'm missing a reference point there that I need to understand it.


Some people count gcds mid fight I guess. I don't have the capacity to do that while dealing with the rotation itself and mechanics.

Honestly, The Balance Discord way overcomplicates it. A long time ago I made a simpler infographic that the author used for their guide, but they changed around the text so that it no longer makes sense, and I can only imagine how much more confusion that adds to people wanting to learn the job.

But anyway, Brotherhood is used on CD after the opener. MNK's burst is anchored around Riddle of Fire, so no need to think too much about where you use Brotherhood; just use it as soon as it's available. No need to count GCDs either; all you need to know is which burst window to use based on where Riddle of Fire comes off CD. I recently made this image for my friend, and they got the hang of it the very next day. Maybe this will make more sense:

This only has two burst windows for simplicity. I argue that the RoF+BH2 window from The Balance guide shouldn't exist because 1) its DPS gains are questionable; it carries the risk of using Rising Phoenix outside of Brotherhood & other 2 minute buffs and 2) it way overcomplicates things for no good reason. It's possible to parse 99s following the guidelines in this image.

tl;dr - MNK is hard because The Balance guide explains it in a really confusing way. I love The Balance and what they do for the community, but at the end of the day, they're a group focused on high-end optimization, so their explanations aren't always going to be beginner friendly.

[Palladiamors]

Honestly? Tough question. I know the ones I enjoy, the ones that are white noise, and the ones I actively hate. I enjoy Samurais build up to it's three different attacks. I enjoy Ninjutsu and it's supporting skills. Red mage and it's black and white mana buildup are pretty fun too. I like the flow of dark knight balancing it's self buff, mp usage, and it's buildup. The simplicity of Gunbreaker is kinda nice too.

Most of the jobs that are just bar building are just white noise to me. Doesn't mean I don't like them, I consider Machinst to be my main since the removal of summoner. I just have to like the rest of the style to make up for it.

I actively hate Nu summoners style. Across the board. I don't know how much of that is spite out of losing the job I played from day one of ARR to be honest. But I know that in games where that's the general play style I tend to drift away pretty fast.

So in summation, I think systems that require more than just numbers go up are more engaging to me and no systems at all set my head on fire.

[Renathras]

Yeah, it's a hard question. There are a lot of things that are related to good design, but aren't mechanical/something that can be programmed directly, per se. There's also a lot of subjective feeling, min-maxing stuff, hot big a gap between playing well and playing perfectly, etc that will involve things like numbers tuning and how one feels playing it, but may not EXACTLY be design. So it's kind of a hard question, just one I've been thinking a lot about lately.

"all Jobs must have a Job Gauge" + 2 min meta + proliferation of builder/spender systems = Jobs feeling samey

I'm not even sure that design is BAD, it's just bad when every Job pretty much uses it. It also makes every Job a "burst" Job. Some other MMOs have things like "sustained damage" and "cleave/AOE" strengths, but we just have all the same across the board and every Job is a burst Job. Even BLM, praised for not submitting whole to the 2 min meta, has bursty potential and does so with raid buffs in optimal play.

I think the Jobs I like best in terms of design right now are probably PLD and SMN. Yes, I know, hot take, but the REASON is what's important.

I like that the rotation is kind of broken up into modules that you can move around. For example, say you need to raise someone as SMN. You can without totally borking your rotation. You have one (and some change) Ruin 3 casts per minute that you can substitute. Say both healers go down and you have to raise both. That's about 10 seconds of time. But you could do this and then before your next Demi, you just use a Primal, maybe only get off one of its attacks, then roll into the Demi, cutting it short but keeping your rotation in line with raid buffs. The key here is that the rotation is flexible and allows this.

PLD is similar with Holy Spirit and Atonement, and even non-Holy Might Holy Spirit casts that you may be inclined to use in some situations (extended disengages, for example).

Note this isn't an argument of difficulty.

The key here to me is, mechanically, the Jobs allow choice and allow you to tweak and bend your rotation on the fly in response to situations, to push or pull in response to party needs or boss mechanics.

Contrast with very rigid Jobs, like say GNB or DRG, which are much more punished if they drift or fail to maintain their rotation. There are also Jobs in the middle, like WAR, where it needs to upkeep its Storm's Eye buff, but otherwise has a lot of flexibility in when it can use things other than Inner Release clockwork.

Other than maybe BLM (and some healers, maybe?), we don't really have any sustain Jobs anymore, and even BLM and WHM get in on the 2 min burst business. And it's not bad to have rigid Jobs...as long as they aren't ALL that. But for me personally, I think good Job design allows for flexibility and choice on the player's part. I think that's also where real skill expression comes from. Not from having one "right" answer and a bunch of "wrong" answers, but from having several "right" answers and the player is rewarded for thinking through how to use them, what else the encounter does, planning around that, and reacting to party needs.

I DO think it's good and healthy for a game to have a lot of different types, though, since different players like different types. There have been points where I enjoyed really rigid classes since I could kind of "learn/get it" then do it consistently. Some people love proc based ones because it means they never have the same encounter twice. For me, I think the kinds I like best are those that have some "anchor" points, but flexibility in between them. SMN's anchors being Demis, PLD's being FoF/Requiescat, but what you do in between is much more a matter of player choice and skill expression.

[Shurrikhan]

Some other MMOs have things like "sustained damage" and "cleave/AOE" strengths, but we just have all the same across the board and every Job is a burst Job. Even BLM, praised for not submitting whole to the 2 min meta, has bursty potential and does so with raid buffs in optimal play.

Aye. That's the thing, though. Because the cost of swapping is so low within a given gear class, especially outside of the period immediately following weapon upgrades, instances need to have enough mechanics that advantage each different job to somehow roughly equal degree.

That is to say, since jobs are essentially just easily swapped "specializations" for the core classes of Fending, Maiming, Striking, Scouting, Aiming, Casting, and Healing, if those advantages are imbalanced over the course of an instance, you lose "spec" choice, but if there are no advantages, those "specs" increasingly feel the same (and the easier to quantify their value becomes, the tighter the parity demanded between jobs becomes in turn).

What's perhaps most disappointing is that XIV predominantly designs towards the latter: there are just virtually no advantaged jobs in the first place, outside of maybe the odd bit of Macrocosmos or Holmgang exploitability. Instead we have "1 mob 90+% of the time, with maybe a set of 4 adds that can all be killed simultaneously," so that no cleave advantage can possibly form significantly and player behaviors need basically never shift with composition.

Flexibility (or, greater control over the timings/rate/dynamics of one's outputs), for instance, could be noticeable utility... if there were things in our fights it could actually advantage (e.g., CDs that would otherwise need to be held --for off-rhythm DPS checks-- among jobs with greater but less flexible max burst).

[RitsukoSonoda]

Aye. That's the thing, though. Because the cost of swapping is so low within a given gear class, especially outside of the period immediately following weapon upgrades, instances need to have enough mechanics that advantage each different job to somehow roughly equal degree.

That is to say, since jobs are essentially just easily swapped "specializations" for the core classes of Fending, Maiming, Striking, Scouting, Aiming, Casting, and Healing, if those advantages are imbalanced over the course of an instance, you lose "spec" choice, but if there are no advantages, those "specs" increasingly feel the same (and the easier to quantify their value becomes, the tighter the parity demanded between jobs becomes in turn).

What's perhaps most disappointing is that XIV predominantly designs towards the latter: there are just virtually no advantaged jobs in the first place, outside of maybe the odd bit of Macrocosmos or Holmgang exploitability. Instead we have "1 mob 90+% of the time, with maybe a set of 4 adds that can all be killed simultaneously," so that no cleave advantage can possibly form significantly and player behaviors need basically never shift with composition.

Flexibility (or, greater control over the timings/rate/dynamics of one's outputs), for instance, could be noticeable utility... if there were things in our fights it could actually advantage (e.g., CDs that would otherwise need to be held --for off-rhythm DPS checks-- among jobs with greater but less flexible max burst).

A number of these issues in FFXIV came to be due to the amount of normal RPG mechanics and elements that have been stripped from the game. Because of this they essentially dug themselves a hole in job design options then fell to the bottom of it as it severely limits what they can actually do with job design without blatantly making certain jobs out perform others in the same role. And even then they've still caused that exact scenario to happen in cases.

[Eraden]

Job is only good if fights designed with job in mind and vice versa. Is likes lock and key. If key nots fit lock, key bad. EW fights been gettings more and more mobile. Is makings harder for BLMs to do well. BLMs well designed but EW leavings BLMs little bits behind.