What makes a good Job mechanically?

[Amarande]

Non-convoluted rotations for me.

Monk is annoying because it has optimal drift windows. All the jobs are currently annoying because of how strict the rotations are for optimal dps due to the 2 min buff windows. Get slightly out of alignment and your dps tanks.

That's just not fun. I don't want to make sloppy play good, but it shouldn't need to be this strict either.

Mood here. On top of that you have some jobs' primary gearing objective as a result being to absolutely micro manage SkS (as in needing one of the few specific exact GCDs that divide exactly evenly into 120s) so that their big hits land exactly on time.

SAM went from being one of my fave DPS in Stormblood to "ugh I hate this" territory in Shadowbringers and the GCD management (not to mention artificial suboptimal filler based thereupon) for the sake of aligning Tsubame was one of the biggest drivers. Wasn't this whole thing why they got rid of Accuracy, because having to micro manage a specific stat that exactly (unlike the "the more the better" universality of all the other stats) was miserable? (Heck. Even WoW got rid of its multiple flavors of Hit Rating for that reason. When even Blizzard decides something is too unfun ...)

I main DNC these days and I'm not sure if we're supposed to do the same for Tillana or not (to be fair, I'm not sure there's much of anything static about DNC with how many random proc things you have to fire off, other than trying to do your dances on time every cooldown, which combined with how much depends on your dance partner's performance rather than your own makes it perfect for an okay-but-not-great player like myself, lol).

IMO, it seems like optimally, most classes should get the vast majority of their performance relatively easily by simply doing the holy trinity of "obvious button is obvious" "keep your GCD rolling" and "don't clip your GCD by overweaving" and then get a little bit of extra performance wiggle for the "super tryhard" types to show off, although given that serious players usually rank based on percentile competition rather than raw performance, I'm not sure how much it would help the culture at this point, either.

As for the "everything is a DPS" thing: it would be nice if the Tank and especially Healer roles were more emphasized as well, but I am also after many years of gaming not entirely sure how or even if this is practically feasible.

Healer, in particular, needs to be able to pull off saves, otherwise you're just a maintenance babysitter for predictable routine damage, which actually explains a lot of the discontent among the healer crowd.

Personally, I like WHM for things like it being comfy for some solo tasks, especially Solo Duties which historically were very tense on DPS while healers' self sustain eased the stress a lot, but yeah ... you can't save anyone these days, because everything that's not an instakill comes with a punishment mechanic now, and if it DOESN'T have a punishment mechanic, well ... something happened to player culture in the past 15 years or so and I'm not too thrilled with it. Used to be that standing in the fire was universally condemned - now unless there is some punishment OTHER than straight non-oneshot damage, it's actually expected to the point that you're out of touch if you complain about it. Heck, even Vulns often don't cut it anymore, which is why so many fights have those awful damage downs (or just more straight instakills) ...

[Shurrikhan]

Mood here. On top of that you have some jobs' primary gearing objective as a result being to absolutely micro manage SkS (as in needing one of the few specific exact GCDs that divide exactly evenly into 120s) so that their big hits land exactly on time.

SAM went from being one of my fave DPS in Stormblood to "ugh I hate this" territory in Shadowbringers and the GCD management (not to mention artificial suboptimal filler based thereupon) for the sake of aligning Tsubame was one of the biggest drivers.

We already had GCD alignment for the sake of aligning old Hagakure and Higanbana, though, complete with suboptimal filler based thereupon.

Had TG been usable for 5s after your most recent Iaijutsu cast or until you again generated Sen, the two would have had near identical gameplay in terms of centering our rotation around their milestones.



Personally, I enjoyed both for that same reason you seem to dislike them, mostly. But I preferred Hagakure over Tsubame simply because I frequently get high packet loss, which could then eat either of those two abilities on press, and I could at many GCD tiers give myself more time before overcapping Sen to get Hagakure off with minimal and basically linear opportunity cost (at least unless I outright consume Sen via IJ or overcap them), whereas Tsubame would mean having to wait another 9 whole GCDs without Meikyo to Kaeshi: Midare because you only had that immediate next GCD in which to use it.

And... there wasn't much good reason for that stricture beyond just the skill looking slightly cooler with no other weaponskills between them. The ceiling would be very slightly higher, actually, if you could Tsubame up to a few GCDs later, even if "skill gap" between basic failure and no basic failure were less.


For me, perfect would just be the ability to store Tsubame either until next available Iaijutsu (which would allow for button consolidation, if you used TG's CD alike to a charge timer laid over the top of Iaijutsu's icon), or just to be held indefinitely (which is of more interesting use to dungeons, PvP, and other content including a greater number of initial engagements and/or targets with lower TTK).

In that system, leave Hagakure as an at-cost option of 2 GCDs' cooldown, but give an upgrade to Hagakure, too, with each upgrade or new action that increases its opportunity cost, such as by giving it an increasing chance to grant 5 more Kenki per Sen. That way it doesn't go from an at-cost "option" increasingly towards an outright "trap".

[CidHeiral]

This is entirely subjective but for me what I like in a job is:

- Job gameplay is unique compared to other jobs.
- The job meter does something engaging and interplays with multiple abilities.
- The job is busy with lots of buttons and lots to do, at least in bursts.
- Rotation takes at least some thought and isn't just whack-a-mole.
- Aesthetically looks really cool.

Needless to say the trend of simplifying and homogenizing every job is very concerning. Not every job needs to appeal to everyone, there are so many jobs in the game now it's okay for them to fill different niches. There will always be people whining that X job is too hard or parse goblins saying Y job is LITERALLY USELESS because it doesn't have Z ability. Just ignore them. WoW went down the road of listening to those people and it was a very dark time of every class playing like it was designed for a 4 year old.

Given Yoship's recent comments on lots of jobs getting new rotations in Dawntrail, I wonder if they saw the positive feedback about PvP job design and are bringing some of that to PvE. I hope the lesson they learned was "people like fun and unique jobs" and not "people like having three buttons."

[MonsutaMan]

in MMO theory, a job has an identity, that feels different from others.

I remember when Ryu and Ken from Street Fighter were pretty much the same characters with different gi colors. Fans considered them great characters once Capcom began differentiating them from one another. They were similar, but different.

Most jobs in XIV feel like Ryu and Ken when aesthetics were the only thing which differentiated them.

This may not be a XIV problem, but an MMO problem in general. I feel players should define their own roles. What is the job/class to you? Champions Online and Final Fantasy XI are the only MMO I know were players defined roles.

Ninja was not designed to be a tank in XI, players made it one. It could also be a powerful Melee, ranged attacker (back in the day with Shurikens) or caster.

SAM was designed to be an off-tank, players made it a DPS.

RDM was designed to be a melee mage of shorts, players made it a off-healer. RDM Melee can also be beastly.

MNK is actually a DPS, but it can tank (Counter tanking a mob in XI who used Hundred Fist results in DBZ -esque rapid strikes between you and the mob).

BST is designed to be a limited job, but can DPS heal, debuff and tank.......whatever you want....BST was known to take down monsters which required an entire group to defeat. Ironically, it was not OP in parties. Its' durability is what made it special. It could use whatever creatures were around as weapons. If one falls, charm another. or, heal the one you have before it falls.

Champions Online actually allowed players to pick powers from any other class in the game to create their own Frankenstein class. It surprisingly was not broken.....

[Payadopa]

in MMO theory, a job has an identity, that feels different from others.

I remember when Ryu and Ken from Street Fighter were pretty much the same characters with different gi colors. Fans considered them great characters once Capcom began differentiating them from one another. They were similar, but different.

Most jobs in XIV feel like Ryu and Ken when aesthetics were the only thing which differentiated them.

This may not be a XIV problem, but an MMO problem in general. I feel players should define their own roles. What is the job/class to you? Champions Online and Final Fantasy XI are the only MMO I know were players defined roles.

Ninja was not designed to be a tank in XI, players made it one. It could also be a powerful Melee, ranged attacker (back in the day with Shurikens) or caster.

SAM was designed to be an off-tank, players made it a DPS.

RDM was designed to be a melee mage of shorts, players made it a off-healer. RDM Melee can also be beastly.

MNK is actually a DPS, but it can tank (Counter tanking a mob in XI who used Hundred Fist results in DBZ -esque rapid strikes between you and the mob).

BST is designed to be a limited job, but can DPS heal, debuff and tank.......whatever you want....BST was known to take down monsters which required an entire group to defeat. Ironically, it was not OP in parties. Its' durability is what made it special. It could use whatever creatures were around as weapons. If one falls, charm another. or, heal the one you have before it falls.

Champions Online actually allowed players to pick powers from any other class in the game to create their own Frankenstein class. It surprisingly was not broken.....

I think one of the problems is the Duty Finder. It's just too static. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go back to the days of XI where you LFG for hours but everything needs to fit into either DPS, tank, healer. No hybrids, no experimentation, no nothing. And it's made worse by DPS checks and enrage. Now all DPS must be equal. I don't know what the solution is. That's why we have game designers, but I think SE can't really afford to remove even more systems. There barely is anything left at this point. I never understood why XIV couldn't learn from XI, instead of being as different as possible. As per usual in this game there is no middle ground.

[TheDustyOne]

What makes a good job mechanically?

Honestly a very complex question, and a lot of it will be heavily mired in subjectivity, but I'll do my best to answer what I think makes a good job.

A good job feeds into itself with complementary abilities, a defining mechanic (or two), and thoughtful decision making.
Monk for example, has a few mechanics we can look at; Bootshine will always crit in the right form, which guarantees Chakra generation. But its potency is lower than Dragon Kick, however instead of just spamming Dragon Kick, it generates a buff to the next Bootshine.
This now makes us alternate between the two combos rather than only spamming one combo to generate something. We're now looking at Leaden Fist, Chakra Gauge, and current fist form. The DoT and buff on different timers further changes up our combos so that we're having to make an on-the-fly decision with every combo step, rather than a set "4-5-6, 1-2-3, 4-5-6...." for infinity, instead that combo may ask us to "4-5-3" "1-2-6" "4-2-6" "1-5-3".
Blitz throws a wrench into the flow of the combos where we have to ask; what Blitz attack generates the Nadi I need? Will I need to refresh my DoT/buff? How will that interfere with the Blitz I need? This means that our decisions have some weight behind them.
Ideally, when you go for Elixir Field, you want to use only Bootshine and Dragon Kick, so if your DoT or buff is about to expire, you may need to refresh those first before entering PB. Sure, you can go Demolish > Snap > Snap, but that's not as strong as Bootshine > DK. This in turn further feeds Chakra and lets us use Forbidden Chakra more often.

I disagree with the opinion that monk doesn't feel good or flow nicely. It keeps me on my toes, it's fast, the combo system is unique amongst the jobs, Blitz interacts with that combo system, the job as a whole feels cohesive. At most, Riddle of Wind increasing auto attack speed is boring. If it also had auto attacks generate Chakra on crits, then it'd be worthwhile.

This is also what I think made old SCH a good job too. Multiple DoTs to upkeep, an ability to spread those DoTs, a DoT that acted as a weave window and movement tool as well as spammable AoE, a bevy of oGCD heals to take advantage of said weave window, Quickened Aetherflow that would feed into itself and rewarded good Aetherflow management, Energy Drain acting as your MP tool and a risk for wanting a little extra damage, etc. It was thematic, its abilities interacted well with each other, had some good risk-reward payoffs based on your decisions on the fly, and took a lot of skill to master.

[VentVanitas]

I think one of the problems is the Duty Finder. It's just too static. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go back to the days of XI where you LFG for hours but everything needs to fit into either DPS, tank, healer. No hybrids, no experimentation, no nothing. And it's made worse by DPS checks and enrage. Now all DPS must be equal. I don't know what the solution is. That's why we have game designers, but I think SE can't really afford to remove even more systems. There barely is anything left at this point. I never understood why XIV couldn't learn from XI, instead of being as different as possible. As per usual in this game there is no middle ground.

as much as I would love to have a less rigid trinity system, a lot of the game would have to fundamentally change, changes so I deep that I don't realistically see SE doing to a game that's 10 years in unfortunately. not to say that they still can't learn things from games like XI of course, Eureka/Bozja exist after all.

[SargeTheSeagull]

In lieu of writing an essay I'll say this: I just want unique, fun, interactive jobs. I don't have to like every single job there is. In fact, it's probably a good thing if I (and everyone else for that matter) don't enjoy every job. The very point of having more than 1 job/class/spec/hero/fighter/character in a game is so that it can have a unique gameplay style from other jobs/classes/specs/heroes/fighters/characters in the game. That's THE point. And currently that's the point 14 is missing.

[RitsukoSonoda]

as much as I would love to have a less rigid trinity system, a lot of the game would have to fundamentally change, changes so I deep that I don't realistically see SE doing to a game that's 10 years in unfortunately. not to say that they still can't learn things from games like XI of course, Eureka/Bozja exist after all.

It's not so much the trinity system itself that is the issue and more to do with the combination of the overall game being nearly entirely stripped of everything related to RPGs in terms of design and game mechanics being paired with dumbing down player choices and decisions as well by essentially making all the job options in each role the same because actual choices beyond aesthetics is too high of a learning curve for the "accessibility" they're trying to create.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

It's not so much the trinity system itself that is the issue and more to do with the combination of the overall game being nearly entirely stripped of everything related to RPGs in terms of design and game mechanics being paired with dumbing down player choices and decisions as well by essentially making all the job options in each role the same because actual choices beyond aesthetics is too high of a learning curve for the "accessibility" they're trying to create.

I think it has more to do with how powerful party buffs are, and the pushing towards that 2 min burst window than anything.


Back in SB, when the windows weren't perfectly aligned, was my favorite tbh. Its not really a lack of RPG elements at fault for the current issues. We had the same lacking back then. Its the way combat is structured, and the way players use jobs, which is done due to damage being the highest goal of a group. So now we have 2 min burst windows that sucked the soul out of everything combat.