I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[ty_taurus]

Like wise, and I've said as much before I see no reason why WHM's AOE needs to now be apart of its single target.

As I've said before as well, you see it as reusing an ability and giving it a new place that it didn't have before. I see it as a lazy design attempt especially coming from the devs from developing something new instead.

I've already explained Misery. I don't see it as an AoE when 50% of its damage is removed on other enemies than its intended target. To my eyes by that point it is mostly a single target button. Now you can argue semantics and perhaps it is. The point is no, I don't want Holy as apart of the single target rotation I would rather have something else. Period.

You'd rather have a button that is effectively dead on your hotbar for the majority of this game's content rather than have a button that serves both the purpose of being AoE spam while also being a part of your single target rotation? AoE is not interesting or exciting in this game. There is 0 reason to have entirely divorced AoE buttons eating up space on your hotbar especially when hotbar space is factor that plays into what new actions a job is permitted to have.

Ren's more on the money on this one. I think that maybe there's a little more we can do with holy than just making it a higher damage nuke after three Glares, but it's not something I'm opposed to either. It's no golden goose on its own, but actually giving Holy a purpose other than to burn down random trash that no one cares about is a small victory at the very least.

[ASkellington]

You'd rather have a button that is effectively dead on your hotbar for the majority of this game's content rather than have a button that serves both the purpose of being AoE spam while also being a part of your single target rotation? AoE is not interesting or exciting in this game. There is 0 reason to have entirely divorced AoE buttons eating up space on your hotbar especially when hotbar space is factor that plays into what new actions a job is permitted to have.

Because I don't care that its dead outside of AoE instances.

If you want to have a discussion on that for the classes as a whole that's one thing. We aren't discussing that.

The design premise is this:

3 Glares = a buffed up Holy to

1. Not give WHMs an alienating rotation
2. Break up Glare spam.

It does both of these things. I don't like it. And I wouldn't want it.

I would much rather prefer having a proccing Dia or a better designed lily system that does what its supposed to - reward the WHM healing with damage.

3 glares into a holy is something we have in the game already. The only thing missing is a trait.

[ty_taurus]

Because I don't care that its dead outside of AoE instances.

If you want to have a discussion on that for the classes as a whole that's one thing. We aren't discussing that.

The design premise is this:

3 Glares = a buffed up Holy to

1. Not give WHMs an alienating rotation
2. Break up Glare spam.

It does both of these things. I don't like it. And I wouldn't want it.

I would much rather prefer having a proccing Dia or a better designed lily system that does what its supposed to - reward the WHM healing with damage.

3 glares into a holy is something we have in the game already. The only thing missing is a trait.

Ren's specific proposition may specify exactly that (and Aero 3), but nothing else. But that doesn't mean other things like a "Diacloud" proc, or a revamped lily system cannot exist simultaneously. Like I said, I'm not advocating for his suggestion specifically, but giving a use to Holy always, not just at the game's lowest, most uninteresting points, is a checkbox I would like to see filled. And that applies to all the healers.

[ASkellington]

Ren's specific proposition may specify exactly that (and Aero 3), but nothing else. But that doesn't mean other things like a "Diacloud" proc, or a revamped lily system cannot exist simultaneously. Like I said, I'm not advocating for his suggestion specifically, but giving a use to Holy always, not just at the game's lowest, most uninteresting points, is a checkbox I would like to see filled. And that applies to all the healers.

And I have said if you want to give Holy (and other aoes) something else to do that's fine. That doesn't mean I want it as a part of a rotation.

[Shurrikhan]

Ren's more on the money on this one. I think that maybe there's a little more we can do with holy than just making it a higher damage nuke after three Glares, but it's not something I'm opposed to either. It's no golden goose on its own, but actually giving Holy a purpose other than to burn down random trash that no one cares about is a small victory at the very least.

Aye. I don't especially care for Ren's suggested procedure, but there seems no point in leaving certain buttons dead in any almost all serious content.

:: Inb4 any what-about for Repose, Esuna, etc. Yes, ideally I wouldn't leave those dead, either. But not necessarily going for one more instance of bloat doesn't require removing every single other instance of it.

[ty_taurus]

Aye. I don't especially care for Ren's suggested procedure, but there seems no point in leaving certain buttons dead in any almost all serious content.

:: Inb4 any what-about for Repose, Esuna, etc. Yes, ideally I wouldn't leave those dead, either. But not necessarily going for one more instance of bloat doesn't require removing every single other instance of it.

The idea solution to Esuna is simply make debuffs more consistent. There are a couple of issues with Esuna as it stands: 1. The UI is in dire need of a modernization to make cleansable debuffs more visible. A hair-thin, tiny blue line above an already tiny debuff icon is something I'm astonished has not been updated at this point. 2. Debuffs have a tendency to either be inconsequential and thus not worth casting Esuna, or fatal if not cleansed and thus must be Esuna'd.

If we updated the game's UI for buffs and debuffs to not be a hideous eyesore and actually communicate information to the player, we can resolve point 1 very quickly. Point 2 is something I've talked about before and gave examples as to other debuffs that provide players with a choice they get to make. For example, Infirmity is a debuff that greatly reduces the HP restored to a target. Using that for heal checks and giving the player the option to cleanse it with Esuna allows the player to choose what's most effective, removing it to heal effectively, or spend more cooldowns to heal through the debuff. If you strike the balance correctly, that could create more opportunities for healers to make choices during combat.

The more basic solution I've proposed if we're going to continue to leave debuffs largely out of sight and out of design space, then simply merge Esuna with your basic Cure, Physick, Benefic, and Diagnosis. You cut down on button bloat by combing two incredibly niche resources. It would still not be used all that often, but it's more efficient to a single action that can cover multiple niches rather than several buttons that each cover their own niches.

[Aravell]

If we updated the game's UI for buffs and debuffs to not be a hideous eyesore and actually communicate information to the player, we can resolve point 1 very quickly. Point 2 is something I've talked about before and gave examples as to other debuffs that provide players with a choice they get to make. For example, Infirmity is a debuff that greatly reduces the HP restored to a target. Using that for heal checks and giving the player the option to cleanse it with Esuna allows the player to choose what's most effective, removing it to heal effectively, or spend more cooldowns to heal through the debuff. If you strike the balance correctly, that could create more opportunities for healers to make choices during combat.

One easy thing they could do is to layer a red tint over a player's name in the party list when they have a debuff that can be cleansed. They already grey out a player's name if they're too far away from you, I don't see why they can't change how their name looks when they have a cleansable debuff.

[ty_taurus]

One easy thing they could do is to layer a red tint over a player's name in the party list when they have a debuff that can be cleansed. They already grey out a player's name if they're too far away from you, I don't see why they can't change how their name looks when they have a cleansable debuff.

What I've been saying for literally years has been to just do what FFXII did, have the debuff name and icon flicker over the afflicted party member's name and MP when the debuff can be cleansed with Esuna.


Not only that, but perhaps add UI above a player's head when there is a debuff that can be cleansed, which you also see with FFXII:

[Shurrikhan]

The idea solution to Esuna is simply make debuffs more consistent. There are a couple of issues with Esuna as it stands: 1. The UI is in dire need of a modernization to make cleansable debuffs more visible. A hair-thin, tiny blue line above an already tiny debuff icon is something I'm astonished has not been updated at this point. 2. Debuffs have a tendency to either be inconsequential and thus not worth casting Esuna, or fatal if not cleansed and thus must be Esuna'd.

I feel like we ought to get the UI improvements regardless of whether Esuna even continues to exist or not, but...

I think we've been down this tangent before, but I honestly wouldn't mind if Esuna was removed, if it's only ever used in the sense it is now, mostly because when it has power to be worth the button, it frequently makes healing debuffs less interesting than if it didn't exist. Sadly, those issues are only compounded if you attach an additional 400-500 potency of healing atop it the "removes mechanic" effect, and keeping its value in check then requires having either (A) still having many mechanics be immune to Esuna or (B) reworking Esuna altogether.

If I had to keep it, though, I would just have virtually all debuffs cause enough damage over their duration to be worth at least some 1200 potency of healing to counter, so you never have any that are an outright waste to deal with via Esuna.

As for Repose... that gets into a whole thing with rehauling Enmity which in turn would ask for a replacement for Esuna that calls for an elemental system of sorts (set on fire -> douse with water; wet and therefore susceptible to ice and lightning -> dry with wind or fire; poisoned -> increase the afflicted ally's Resistance because it has a flat damage reduction component, which is then far more powerful against quickly-ticking DoTs; etc., etc.), so I'll save that for another time.

[ForsakenRoe]

As for Repose... that gets into a whole thing with rehauling Enmity which in turn would ask for a replacement for Esuna that calls for an elemental system of sorts (set on fire -> douse with water; wet and therefore susceptible to ice and lightning -> dry with wind or fire; poisoned -> increase the afflicted ally's Resistance because it has a flat damage reduction component, which is then far more powerful against quickly-ticking DoTs; etc., etc.), so I'll save that for another time.

If they're going to keep Repose, I'd give it an additional effect of '10% damage down for X seconds' (balance as needed), which would also affect bosses (the sleep would not). You wouldn't spam it because it's a massive damage loss (since Repose is a GCD), but it allows for a party that is lacking defensive capability to cover for that. Harrowing Hell with DRK/GNB is way harder because neither can contribute their 90s, they're magic only and the damage coming in is physical. But with this, you'd at least be able to cover part of HH with another 10% you wouldn't normally have in that comp. It also gives WHM access to another mit tool, even if it does cost a GCD to use it. Maybe you could give WHM specifically some kind of interplay between it and Blood Lily so that it's not a damage loss for WHM specifically (not much thought put into this so it's probably not balanced)

You know, it's funny you should say that...



This was from ARR White Mage, not that this invalidates anything you're saying of course, I just think it's really interesting and kinda funny.

Another example of 'strangely worded tooltip catches players unaware', possibly. You're right that it's funny though.