Zepla: Endwalker is the Worst FFXIV Expansion I have played

[Shurrikhan]

It's the same general design cadence they've been doing since at least SB and really since HW, but "suddenly" it's "stale".

So that design cadence should be considered still "fresh" even after being done for 4 expansion in a row (and having slowed over time)?

Those complaints haven't appeared "suddenly". They've increased pretty linearly with the time spent under those repeated roadmaps.

But then you have the people saying it has less content who also didn't like Eureka/Bozja, despite that being the only real difference...

This bit, though, I'll agree can be a bit of a headscratcher... if the opinion is given only per one's own (self-)interests.

It the repeatable content from before wasn't one's cup of tea before, than the content of value to that person hasn't changed by losing it, though they can still miss the friends who now play only per patch release because there's no content for them, either, now.

[Renathras]

So that design cadence should be considered still "fresh" even after being done for 4 expansion in a row (and having slowed over time)?

Those complaints haven't appeared "suddenly". They've increased pretty linearly with the time spent under those repeated roadmaps.

No.

My complaint is more it's suddenly a problem when it hasn't been before AND that people point to the before as bastions of content. EW is effectively ShB 2.0, yet many praised ShB and condemn EW. For having roughly the same amount of content. And highly praise SB. For having roughly the same amount of content.

If they were condemning ShB and SB, that would make more sense.

The more nuanced claims talk about repeatable content...but that's really JUST Eureka/Bozja, and maybe Isghard Restoration (though that wasn't exactly repeatable, it was more just "big event"), and in some cases, by users who have said they don't like Eureka/Bozja content, in which case, what DID ShB have for them that EW does not? A REALLY nuanced claim would note the longer patch cycle, but not many (any? other than me, that is) people seem to mention that.

It seems more like general dissatisfaction, not that the game/Devs are giving them less. People wanting more and being annoyed with being given the same amount and wrongly calling it less when it simply wasn't more.

[Shurrikhan]

My complaint is more it's suddenly a problem when it hasn't been before AND that people point to the before as bastions of content. EW is effectively ShB 2.0, yet many praised ShB and condemn EW. For having roughly the same amount of content. And highly praise SB. For having roughly the same amount of content.

If they were condemning ShB and SB, that would make more sense.

But it hasn't been treated as a "sudden" problem in terms of being novel in its type, only in its extent. It's more a 'straw that breaks the camel's back' situation, not a complaint over straw itself.

You'll find complaints about "overly safe" or "unambitious" roadmapping as far back as Stormblood.

[Renathras]

it’s very rare...

I mean, you know I'm a massive proponent of Eureka/Bozja type content, right?

That said: People were highly critical of them at the time. I think it's more "absence makes the heart go fonder"; it took not having one for people to see that they're good to have and that the complaints ("Eureka/Bozja suck! We want a HW Relic grind where you just do content and turn in some parts!") were bad. This also goes into the whole thing about people complaining about the wrong things.

I'm not dismissing it.

I AM pointing out that it's the only difference.

"Raids suck now"; We have the same amount of fights in EW as ShB and SB and HW. And the fights are largely more technical and "hard" than they were back then (in terms of "the dance"); what's easier is the uptime so difficulty has been shifted away from rotations and into mechancis.

"The Trial series isn't a separate story"; but it's the same number of fights, and the fight mechanics are arguably more difficult (and more body check filled). So that means (in a way) more content for hardcores (at the expense of the midcore). "But it was more story content"; yes, but this time we have Tataru's quests, which in term of length to do (cutscenes and all) are similar in time expended to Wyrlit or Four Lords were. That is, we still have that AMOUNT of content. And 4 Fiends was at least slightly more compelling imo than 4 Lord was (aside from Phoenix).

Even the complaint about Orthos is more "It's the same thing again", not that it's less.

.

So it seems less EW has less content, or significantly so, and more a combination that the content isn't as repeatable and it doesn't have MORE. So people saying it has so much less are kind of lying (though, to be fair, most aren't going to lay out the content side-by-side to realize it's about the same amount overall). They also, in praising past expansions, are defeating their own argument that we had so much more content because we, in fact, did not. Or in different words:

"People are stating the wrong complaint."

They had SPECIFIC content that had more longevity. That's the only complaint that actually registers.

But it hasn't...

I mean, it kind of is.

Zepla, for example, was not complaining about ShB or SB's content. The forums in ShB were more complaining about healer damage button removal (which wasn't a big deal outside of the healer forum) and how Bozja sucked.

For some people who have been complaining since 4.0, it wasn't a "straw that breaks the camel's back" situation, as they've been complaining for like 6 years and have been perpetually unhappy. For those that haven't, many of them were fine with ShB despite it being basically the same thing.

EDIT:

I have to wonder what world you are living in to say that ShB and EW have "roughly the same amount of content"

OVERALL CONTENT is roughly the same.

We have similar amounts of:
MSQ
Dungeons
Trials
Raids
Alliance
Sidequests
Story sidequests (stuff like Tribal, etc)
PvP (actually we seem to have more of that)
Minigame stuff (new Triad cards, BLU, etc)

What we gained that ShB didn't have:

2 (soon to be 3) Criterion
Deep Dungeon (remember ShB didn't have one)
Island Sanctuary (love it or not, it's still content)
Hildibrand (love it or not, it's still content)

What ShB had that we don't have now:

Bozja (2 zones, 3 raids)
Ishgard Restoration (one-time content, though there's a lot to it)

Vs SB specifically:

SB did have HoH (so Orthos is covered)
Eureka (4 zones, 1 raid)

Are these a big deal?

Oh absolutely! For anyone who somehow has missed me talking about this for literally months AND has missed me saying so in this thread dozens of times including in the post quoted: I LOVE Exploration/Foray zones/content. I think it's great for the game and is really bad Bozja lost one (or two?) zones due to the pandemic and we don't have one in EW. I'm also old enough to remember people ENDLESSLY COMPLAINING about Eureka and Bozja both. It's not the same people, I'm aware, but the fact remains the Devs were responding to feedback, not just being cheapskates or lazy.

.

So in terms of OVERALL CONTENT, the OVERALL CONTENT was similar, yes. It was different. The big change from ShB to EW is we traded Bozja and Ishgard for Orthos and Criterion and Island. As I don't have a Static to run stuff with I just did Sil'di for the story and have only run the new one once because I kind of am not that interested in the setting; and I hate Island being mostly a spreadsheet since I'd rather gather AND CRAFT the stuff myself like I did in Ishgard. But in terms of content, it's a lot of CONTENT, it's just content I don't personally care for. Island has a similar amount of stuff to do as Ishgard Restoration, for example, and once we have all three Criterions, they'll be a similar amount of fight/encounters to Bozja's three raids, especially considering the number of bosses and three difficulty tunings. Add in Orthos for another 10 fights and zone/environments - remember ShB didn't have a Deep Dungeon - and that should equal ROUGHLY the same amount of OVERALL CONTENT.

So yes, the amount of content is similar - laugh all you want - it's just different and, I believe, inferior since it doesn't appeal to as broad an audience and doesn't have the longevity.

This post..baffles me. We have stated on and on, or at least I have, that it isn't the amount, it's that they don't have incentive to keep doing.

I mean, the person right above you said it was the amount. XD

People get mad when I make big posts replying to multiple people, but when I make shorter posts replying to some complaints, they assume it's about theirs and more expansive. Make up your minds, people! This is why I can't make short posts.

And again: Have you not seen MY OWN POSTS talking endlessly about how I love Eureka/Bozja and think their absence is bad?

Talking about exploratory content as "just Eureka/Bozja" sounds a little disingenuous when considering just how big that kind of content really was.

I DO understand this, but this is also true of other stuff. Criterion is going to be 3 dungeons, 15 bosses, with 3 difficulty settings and mechanic sets, and the boss attack patterns and abilities, even within a difficulty, have alterations (e.g. I'm only counting the first boss as "1", but it's actually "3" since it's on each path AND each one has at least two variations, so it's actually "6"). Island Sanctuary is a grind and customization and minion and outdoor furnishing and party/venue/friends group and "grind" for rewards content. Calling them "just Criterion/Island" is disingenuous, too, but it's what people are doing.

Though, again: I complain about Bozja/Eureka being gone. Have you not seen me do so in my posts?

I don't recall if it's viable for post-80 though.

Not really, no. The xp drops off hard. The best way is to maybe get to 81 then use the Levequests in Sharl to get from 81-90. If you have 99 allowances, that's plenty, and you can just go to the NPC vendors in the EW zone settlements to buy the gear to do the gear turn-ins.

It has rewards, but some are ridiculous grinds (the pterodactyl is insane), a lot are complete RNG (Kupo of Fortune), and a lot are about as future proofed as the Timeworn Relic step of the ShB weapons/Delubrium is in terms of you needing to go and grind specific mats if people aren't actively doing the content and flooding your MB.

I think the point around field content was probably the most useful take-home from the video.

This.

Most points can be argued one way or another, but this is the big one.

Field content is a social avenue and a midcore avenue and a casual avenue and a hardcore avenue. Everyone has something. Bozja, for example, you've got casual grinds for relics (it really is, you can do a lot of it with just FATEs and some Roulettes), but also midcore content with some of the fights and raids or people wanting to grind out more for the armor sets and the 10/10/10 seals, but you also have DR Savage for the hardcore people out there, as well as the duels. It really was content for just about everyone, social and soloers alike.

[Berkin]

I DO understand this, but this is also true of other stuff. Criterion is going to be 3 dungeons, 15 bosses, with 3 difficulty settings and mechanic sets, and the boss attack patterns and abilities, even within a difficulty, have alterations (e.g. I'm only counting the first boss as "1", but it's actually "3" since it's on each path AND each one has at least two variations, so it's actually "6"). Island Sanctuary is a grind and customization and minion and outdoor furnishing and party/venue/friends group and "grind" for rewards content. Calling them "just Criterion/Island" is disingenuous, too, but it's what people are doing.

Though, again: I complain about Bozja/Eureka being gone. Have you not seen me do so in my posts?

As you can see by my post count I'm rather new to this forum and I didn't really feel like reading over 100 pages out of this thread, so not really, I haven't seen you do so.
But it's nice knowing we're on the same page.

That aside, if you're going spreadsheet mode to compare the content, I still maintain that we're getting less content overall.

Bozja and Zadnor both had 12 Critical Engagements, a lot of them with Normal Trial/Alliance Raid mechanical complexity, and 3 Duels with savage level mechanics, that's already 30 encounters total.
Then you add Castrum Lacus Litore, which also has like 3 interesting fights in it and Dalriada, admittedly a little worse but still at least 2 decent fights.
Aside from all that Memoria Misera was a fun little Extreme Trial and Delubrum Reginae was a full on Alliance Raid with a very interesting Savage difficulty on top of it.
That's not even counting over 50 FATE's that as much as people like to bash as boring a few of them were actually kind of interesting.

Even if you add DD to the count I don't really think Criterion manages to compare to this.

BTW, savage difficulty is just normal Criterion with bumped up HP/Damage and a few limitations like being unable to rez, I wouldn't call that a whole different set of mechanics but you do you.

[Rolder50]

No.

My complaint is more it's suddenly a problem when it hasn't been before AND that people point to the before as bastions of content. EW is effectively ShB 2.0, yet many praised ShB and condemn EW. For having roughly the same amount of content. And highly praise SB. For having roughly the same amount of content.

I have to wonder what world you are living in to say that ShB and EW have "roughly the same amount of content"

They have roughly same amount of end game raid content sure since that formula never changes, but everything below that has suffered immensely. If you try to tell me that deep dungeon and variant is equivalent to Bozja (which had open world zones, a raid with a savage version, and two larger scale raids, mind) I will laugh.

[Zairava]

No.

My complaint is more it's suddenly a problem when it hasn't been before AND that people point to the before as bastions of content. EW is effectively ShB 2.0, yet many praised ShB and condemn EW. For having roughly the same amount of content. And highly praise SB. For having roughly the same amount of content.

If they were condemning ShB and SB, that would make more sense.

The more nuanced claims talk about repeatable content...but that's really JUST Eureka/Bozja, and maybe Isghard Restoration (though that wasn't exactly repeatable, it was more just "big event"), and in some cases, by users who have said they don't like Eureka/Bozja content, in which case, what DID ShB have for them that EW does not? A REALLY nuanced claim would note the longer patch cycle, but not many (any? other than me, that is) people seem to mention that.

It seems more like general dissatisfaction, not that the game/Devs are giving them less. People wanting more and being annoyed with being given the same amount and wrongly calling it less when it simply wasn't more.

This post..baffles me. We have stated on and on, or at least I have, that it isn't the amount, it's that they don't have incentive to keep doing. There isn't any real meat to the content they have released in the patches. It's there, but there's nothing to chew and take in

I actually had a relic grind in Stormblood and Shadowbringers, and they were both tied to field content, relatively midcore and something I can always go back to and get some form of reward with friends to boot. Not having that really killed this expansion for me. If I had to run Criterion (the "EX" one, not Savage) as a way to get my relics, I would have infinitely more mileage to run it than now.

Even for the people who don't like field content like Eureka/Bozja, not having repeatable content is a valid complaint.

[Berkin]

No.

The more nuanced claims talk about repeatable content...but that's really JUST Eureka/Bozja, and maybe Isghard Restoration (though that wasn't exactly repeatable, it was more just "big event"), and in some cases, by users who have said they don't like Eureka/Bozja content, in which case, what DID ShB have for them that EW does not? A REALLY nuanced claim would note the longer patch cycle, but not many (any? other than me, that is) people seem to mention that.

It seems more like general dissatisfaction, not that the game/Devs are giving them less. People wanting more and being annoyed with being given the same amount and wrongly calling it less when it simply wasn't more.

Talking about exploratory content as "just Eureka/Bozja" sounds a little disingenuous when considering just how big that kind of content really was. There's really no single instance of content to replace it when so much goes into it. (DRS is still the most fun I've had in this game and it was just one instance inside Bozja).

Restoration was actually something to work towards with every patch too, with no real replacement to it besides IS, which was supposed to be the replacement to exploratory content already.

[Zairava]

Talking about exploratory content as "just Eureka/Bozja" sounds a little disingenuous when considering just how big that kind of content really was. There's really no single instance of content to replace it when so much goes into it. (DRS is still the most fun I've had in this game and it was just one instance inside Bozja).

Restoration was actually something to work towards with every patch too, with no real replacement to it besides IS, which was supposed to be the replacement to exploratory content already.

Ah yeah, resoration. That content is future proof, too. People can always go there and have a secondary way to level crafters if they don't want to do levequests. I don't recall if it's viable for post-80 though.

I actually enjoyed ishgard restoration, a part of me wishes I took my time instead of finishing all of my leveling during stage 1.

Even without the leveling aspect, it has rewards for you to go back and get too, it's easy profit if you have them already as well.