Zepla: Endwalker is the Worst FFXIV Expansion I have played

[Lauront]

Most consumers don't research products at all, especially not low value items such as games.

1) Going to just say "bald assertion" here because of how sweeping that statement is, with such a low bar as "at all".

2) "low value" is very much dependent on what you're comparing it to and discretionary expenditures like an MMO sub are some of the first things to go when budgets get tight. The game has a sub as well as upfront purchase cost, and it's not just money but time you're investing in it too. People are increasingly cost-conscious, as well.

3) "Research" in this case is not a particularly high bar (especially if you're saying "at all") since it can involve as little as looking up existing threads on the topic, asking a friend who already plays or asking someone in-game or simply observing with your own two eyes how active the max level playerbase is. I'm not talking about reviews, which have become so fraught with issues that they're often just ignored, but simply looking up/asking for feedback on (or indeed, observing) what the game is like at max level. And it's not hard to find or get.

It usually takes them being burned with a very bad purchase on a similar product before they start doing the research. Even then, they may not bother with a game because they don't see the money involved as a big deal.

Or it just takes them questioning what the value of the subscription is when they're curious as to what the game is like when you get through the levelling experience... it's a sub-based MMO, don't forget that. You're treating this like it's a one off purchase.

So while there are some players who will do that research in advance, I highly doubt its as many as you think. Did you thoroughly research this game and its end game before you purchased it? Did all of your friends?

Seems like a goalpost switcharoo here, from "at all" to "thoroughly". But yeah, I did in fact research the game and its max level content (not just end game, as was pointed out to you) to see what it's like once you go through the levelling experience. This may not immediately occur to someone who is completely new to MMOs and the importance of a healthy community in them, but a common criticism of this game is that it's not the greatest fun while levelling, so putting aside customers who are simply put off by that altogether and just quit without another word, it's not like the question won't come up eventually.


And besides, the "research" is just one aspect of it, as was mentioned; the other is that you'll eventually cease to be a new player and thus that seemingly inexhaustible backlog of content, some of which may not even interest you, will no longer be as inexhaustible. So whether you research it ahead of time or not, assuming you stick around that point will eventually come. Going back to the original post prompting all of this, the game's current content durability may not be an issue to new players whilst they're new but it eventually will be. The difference researching it will make is how long it takes to find out that could be an issue to you.

[SargeTheSeagull]

got a link to the reddit? and wanted to chime in keep in mind on how the community attacked lazypeon to a point where he took down the video and quin

https://reddit.com/r/ffxiv/s/87Nig40M50

Mine is the comment on how WoW’s devs were told to play 14 as homework and the comment I referenced is in the replies to that

[FenyxRising]

Oh is that right? I wonder what happens if you rank the games she plays by average viewership.



Oh....

This honestly needs to be much more visible, I'm honestly shocked, I expected other games to be lower than FF14 but maybe just by 10% or 20%, but I didn't expect her to get way more viewers from other games...

[Rolder50]

lol

Outside of raiding and Ultimates, FF XIV isn't the most entertaining game to stream. If that list is current, then good on you Elden Ring for standing strong. It deserves to be near the top of the list.

First time MSQ reactions can be good as well. But that is, by definition, a one and done.

[Axxion]

https://reddit.com/r/ffxiv/s/87Nig40M50

Mine is the comment on how WoW’s devs were told to play 14 as homework and the comment I referenced is in the replies to that

That would make since. If i recall correctly, they put out a survey asking people what was the likely hood of you playing 14. It kinda funny if you think about yoshi played wow to get the understanding of it the do and dont and wow devs played 14 to help with dragon flight.

On side note. I notice someone mentions about viewer ship. One thing is with 14 is that its easy viewership the problem is said viewers will try to back seat you when playing and will get upset at you if you dont play it there "way". Like someone mentioned there is not really much to watch as far as content. Like are you going to watch someone grind for hours for a relic that you already have? Are you going to watch them play golden saucer games that you already play. You might if the person streaming is entertaining. But other than that no.

The only time its watched alot is when the world race starts one when its a new patch/expansion, new deep dungeons etc.

[Sebazy]

Man, Lineage 2 being more popular on twitch is pretty amazing to me, I never really paid attention to 2 but I remember 1 being all about large scale PvP? So I guess that explains some of it's longevity to a certain extent.

On a more positive note, Stray was exceptional. Go play it if you haven't already++

[Renathras]

I don't think so.

I very much do.

Look at my posts in this thread. I haven't once disagreed with Zepla. I commented on the way she said it, and even in that same post stated points of agreement. And then, got attacked for dozens of pages because I dared to mention how she was talking.

But look at us. I've never accused you of that, because your posts don't do that - least not the ones I've read. There very much is a difference between criticism and insult, and people need to stop pretending there's not when that's the big reason people get pushback when they do. I've made honest criticism of the game - INCLUDING ON THE MAINSUB ON REDDIT - and not been downvoted over it. So it really is how you say as much as what you say.

.

Now, I absolutely DO agree that people will try to avoid accountability or admitting they were wrong (a certain someone here refused to apologize for mischaractierizing my posts as me saying Zepla hurt my feelings but just stopped replying when I demanded proof and I honestly and fine with it staying dead at this point), and some folks (like the below in HB quoted) would rather talk about post length or take snarky jabs at people or people critical of tone rather than discuss the points THEMSELVES.

But those are attacks against people saying the game is good/being positive, so that kind of defeats the argument that the community is critical to any negativity since this forum is critical to positivity but is part of the overall community...

It's so great that this is what this conversation has devolved to. Instead of discussing the issues with Endwalker and our concerns that Dawntrail is just going to be more of the same (or even going further in that direction), it's could Zepla have worded her video more kindly, what was her body language, how to word your own posts so noone takes offense or who cares anyway cause Zepla is just some <insert insult>. Jfc.

I mean, it's a fair critique. But note that fair minded people are saying "I don't like her tone, but I agree with her on the merits", but the negative posters are running with that as "HOW DARE YOU NOT COMPLETELY AGREE WITH HER POINTS AND HER TONE!!!" instead of saying "Okay, we disagree on her tone, but we do all agree on the points raised, let's discuss that". Indeed, some seem to REALLY want to derail the thread (and the passive aggressive talking about people present in the discussion in the third person or goading them to try and help derail the thread so they can blame said people for derailing the thread and then harvest likes for doing so) while there are others trying to seriously discuss the topics.

Her tone IS fair game.

But it's not being done by many people to the exclusion of the points. [Key word: "many"]. I've outright addressed points and agreed with some of hers. Funny how that isn't worth mentioning by the people heckling me. Even if you have no problem with her tone, there's no harm in saying "Okay, I see where you're coming from on the tone - don't agree, but do understand at least. But it seems we agree on the lack of content and that DT needs to address this?" If you say that, I'd say "Yes, very much in agreement. Here's what I think needs to be addressed... <list>"

I think that isn't really true. There are things that nobody defends, such as:
...
What really do you expect? It's like going into a bar and saying alcohol is unhealthy. Sure it is, but it's trolling to go there and say it.

But I think that if you're going to argue that then you should use some statistics otherwise it really is just your opinion. Statistics themselves can be subject to interpretation but at least it is not just throwing something out of nowhere with no evidence.

This.

People complain about things all the time and are praised for it. The only people that get absolutely hammered by "the community" here are the ones being positive, not the ones expressing negativity. The latter are only confronted by a small amount of people, and only a few of them are namecalling antagonistic types trying to shut down conversation, most are being mature about it and offering arguments and rebuttals, only to be met with "lol, write another book, shill".

If you ever want to find bullies and people with questionable attitudes, just say something negative about FF14. As evidenced by the 88 pages in this thread.

I mean, if you ever want to find bullies and people with questionable attitudes around here, just say something positive about FF14. As evidenced by the 88 pages in this thread.

But...that's really a side thing, isn't it? For so many people complaining about people complaining about Zepla's tone instead of her points, so many of them seem to want to "critique" the community instead of discussing Zepla's points.

tldr

"she said something i dont like so she deserves it"

moving on

No.

And no, Stormpeaks, I will NOT aid you in derailing the thread.

I think someone doesn't have friends who bantered with him.



This is over the top that actually, everyone, I mean everyone, would take it as a joke.

No, Titanalt. I will not help YOU derail the thread, either.

Or maybe after doing a little joke, they pampered him and gave him some good headpats to make sure they were okay and that it didnt hurt their feelings



Are you good bro ?

No, Stormpeaks, I will not help you derail the thread.

It's the same culprits all the time. Jojoya, Renathras, ... I mean what's new, they always do this.

No, Titanalt. I WON'T help you derail the thread. Also, I'm still waiting on that ring and marriage proposal.

Yes I got called a misandrist for calling them out about those comments. A lot of people end up just devaluing her because "She's just annoying, her face, opinions, etc" When most people forget we have a large community because of people like her.

/sigh

That isn't why you got called a misandrist. But no, Blossoming, I will not help you derail the thread, either.

[OdinelStarrei]

This was your initial response.



You have provided virtually nothing since other than acting like a victim when we all called you out on providing nothing actually relevant to the discussion you yourself said was derailed, and derailed it further and still are. You said what essentially boiled down to "concerns not valid because content creator".

This same content creator that you constantly insult is the one between you two to actually give extensive detail concerns while being open minded and playing it as safe as possible. You've done nothing here but piss and moan about how you can't have an opinion when you said originally has actually nothing of substance when what she says, like it or not, objectively has details in it that are worthy of discussion, concerns we have been repeating for quite some time.

You're playing the victim when you got rightfully shunned for insinuating her concerns are worthless to begin with. She's just as much a person as we are.

Okay so, in my defense, it's not like I made that image. It actually comes from a different thread, this one right here, I am not wasting my time going through people's post histories, we pretty much know what we're all about at this point.

snip snip

I remember this thread, NOT because of stalking or whatever they want to make up (I find this incredibly humorous because of the death threats I've received over my time here), but because the topic was SO ridiculous and so many people and hundreds of thumbs ups came out of the woodwork to just unify and collectively say "you're wrong lmao" with like two images. That's more engagement than even developer or community rep responses most of the time. I found it absolutely hilarious and it stuck in my head ever since as the quintessential FFXIV OF topic, just without the walls of text or gaslighting.

At least it was funny. Now it's just sad, in hindsight.

[JamieRose]

Zepla tried to expand the repertoire of her stream and it failed because her community by in large seemed to just want XIV content. Now she is desperately trying to maintain any relevancy at all by turning on the game that made her. Taking a page straight out of many WoW streamers playbook circa 2019.

I'm glad at least one person gets it.

[Stormpeaks]

I'm glad at least one person gets it.

So you agree with people bashing her because "she's desperate and is trying to maintain relevancy" just because she has an opinion about a game that doesnt match with yours

and then you talk about bullying ?

do you even see yourself or how does your every day life work, I am genuinely intrigued, do you sometimes self reflect and ask yourself if what you're doing is not the same thing as you blame others for, or do you just go on and keep telling yourself you're a victim while actually doing what you say people shouldnt do ?