Dark Knight needs serious help

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Didnt this one already happen? DRK used to be the gap closer tank way back when.

Now WAR has 4 gap closers to DRK's 2 and a hilarioously underwhelming trait.

What's worse they made Onslaught *in fact* WAR's Plunge i.e. Plunge copy #3 (#1 is Intervene, #2 is Rough Divide) which in various ways is actually less desirable than the Beast Gauge spending version of it. Forced usage during raid buffs for damage rather than pooling 20 gauge for a dash in a fight for better uptime (the damage difference was basically neutral unless you ended a fight on a Heavy Swing otherwise).


But other than that, love how we moved into the realm of pure homogenization from both directions - WAR gets "QoL" of having no-gauge-cost dashes so noobs can pull bosses with gapclosers (eww) and DRK got neutered since Shadowbringers to "Inner Release but worse (Delirium) and Shinten but *probably* worse (Edge of Shadow)".

All for the great overlords who wanted "accessibility" in our game. Which we had, we called it "play Warrior if Dark Knight is too hectic".

[Rithy255]

What's worse they made Onslaught *in fact* WAR's Plunge i.e. Plunge copy #3 (#1 is Intervene, #2 is Rough Divide) which in various ways is actually less desirable than the Beast Gauge spending version of it. Forced usage during raid buffs for damage rather than pooling 20 gauge for a dash in a fight for better uptime (the damage difference was basically neutral unless you ended a fight on a Heavy Swing otherwise).


But other than that, love how we moved into the realm of pure homogenization from both directions - WAR gets "QoL" of having no-gauge-cost dashes so noobs can pull bosses with gapclosers (eww) and DRK got neutered since Shadowbringers to "Inner Release but worse (Delirium) and Shinten but *probably* worse (Edge of Shadow)".

All for the great overlords who wanted "accessibility" in our game. Which we had, we called it "play Warrior if Dark Knight is too hectic".

brings me back to SHB warrior which was 100% designed way better, yes it was still simple but it had nuances to it, I don't know why they made beast gauge just a "fell cleave" gauge even if that's your main spender.

That and I loved how flash/rawint worked as it was a Choice which actually made the class feel pretty unique defensively.

Funny thing is Shadowbringers was meant to be the expansion to make things super simple but EW design has just doubled down on it so much that now every job feels/plays the same even more so then it did.

I'm not saying we should go back to something like HW design, but I really hope 7.0 doesn't double down further on EW's design.

[GoatOfWar]

All tanks have had a significant increase in the amount of defensive functions that they provide, well past what any of the encounters actually require. The problem is that those improvements have been unequal in a lot of cases. Could DRK clear a physical only fight, which knocks out two of their defensives completely? Absolutely. Can DRK clear fights despite actually relying on their healer for heals? Definitely. The question being asked is: what unique benefit does DRK bring to the table to offset these unique disadvantages?

If we want Dark Missionary and Heart of Light to be magic only, they should be unambiguously better than Shake it off, as well as the combined effect of Divine Veil and Passage of Arms, all of which work on all damage types. What we have right now is unambiguously worse, even before we account for the fact that these effects are magic only. If you have a problem with that, then just make all mitigation work against all damage types. What a novel concept.

It's fine to have variations in self-healing between the tanks, because content is generally meant to be done with a healer present. But if you want to have one tank be unambiguously better than the others at self-sustain, then you need alternative exclusive benefits to offset this. Perhaps other tanks bring movement speed buffs, or raidwide knockback negation, or perhaps even effects that make spells lose their cast times. Of course, when you do that, the arms race continues. Where's WAR's Plunge? Where's WAR's TBN? Where's WAR's speed boost?

Well, any time a tank can do something War can't the streamers get mad and Warrior gets it too.
So there isn't really a point in giving tanks new stuff because War just gets a better version of it one expansion later.
Tank homogenisation is largely caused by War mains not being able to accept when another tank can do something they can't.
And frankly, i don't really see the point of playing tank anymore as any option besides War is factually, the inferior and incorrect choice in any given context.

[Derio]

Honestly at this point if you are running a expert roulette as a tank and not on WAR you are pretty much trolling.

[Shurrikhan]

Honestly at this point if you are running a expert roulette as a tank and not on WAR you are pretty much trolling.

...You don't need any more than oGCD healing even on DRK, though?

And heck, that's when running it at barely over minimum ilvl.
* (The tank, not necessarily the whole party, as party DPS is a large part of that equation.)

Sure, you're getting less free output. But 10x the excess still remains... excessive.

[Oizen]

Honestly at this point if you are running a expert roulette as a tank and not on WAR you are pretty much trolling.

Nah the DRK sustain issue is weird. It functions well enough in lv 90 content.
The area where it feels like ass is Heavensward and Stormblood, which is weird for a Heavensward job. Its kinda why I dont want any sustain the job gets to come as lv 90-100 skills.

The job needs them in level sync content, not current, the obvious answer is to just make abyssal drain more availalbe and maybe do more with salted earth, but you really could go about it in a lot of ways.

[Absimiliard]

I would agree with you if WAR hadn't been getting such preferential treatment for a while. I was mostly fine with them being virtually immortal in most content because they were paying for it with lower damage. If you wanted a DPS tank, you would reach for GNB or DRK, if you wanted more survivability, then WAR and PLD were your go-to. Except then WAR players threw a hissy fit about their favourite tank not being meta and WAR's damage got buffed. Their mitigation isn't that far behind the tanks with less sustain, either.

Only damage and mechanical competence really matter in endgame content. A tank's ability to sustain itself is regarded as a secondary to these concerns by most high-end groups. As a result of the emphasis on damage, WAR and PLD just weren't considered particularly desirable. I don't think people wanting enough damage to be competitive were unjustified. The problem, ultimately, isn't tanks not dying -- it's their utility. WAR and PLD are very good at keeping other people alive as well, and GNB is okay at it. Most of what ya'll have a problem with would go away quick if they simply cut back overall tank group utility and mitigation, started putting in more enemies that deal high unavoidable damage, and brought enrage timers back into the equation.

It doesn't need to be the tank specifically healers are focused on healing, does it? Let them enjoy themselves by being for the most part self-sustaining. Being the last one standing won't do them any good if they're up against an enrage timer, although to be blunt, I am to this day confused as to why some people are so still mad that tanks can solo bosses in low-end content.

Why is it that RDM has to pay for having Verraise but WAR gets to be the best at everything? That's perhaps what annoys me most about the entire situation.

Because SMN and BLM pitch a fit whenever RDM tries to rise above the rez mage meme. RDM has seen periods where it had respectable damage, but SE's weird hate-boner for them combined with the incessant whining of SMN and BLM mains inevitably saw them cast back down into the pits.

[TakumiHarada]

...You don't need any more than oGCD healing even on DRK, though?

And heck, that's when running it at barely over minimum ilvl.
* (The tank, not necessarily the whole party, as party DPS is a large part of that equation.)

Sure, you're getting less free output. But 10x the excess still remains... excessive.

The difference is you still need some oGCD healing on other tanks but a WAR can solo the whole dungeon if given enough time.
That's how skewed it is. Someone literally soloed a 90 dungeon with WAR, before they buffed Shake It Off and the damage output.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yWSYOahQEY

I'm not saying all tanks should be like WAR. If anything they should take away self-healing from WAR.
I personally use WAR for dungeons most of the time but come on, this is too much.

[Amenara]

Honestly at this point if you are running a expert roulette as a tank and not on WAR you are pretty much trolling.

Honestly the only tank I am super sketchy on are GNBs when I queue into an expert on healer. Most pug GNBs I have gotten feel super squishy compared to any of the other three tanks and actively requires me to be using my heals to keep them up as opposed to throwing a pre-pull shield and hot on the other three and be pretty much good for every trash pull.

[Malthir]

The difference is you still need some oGCD healing on other tanks but a WAR can solo the whole dungeon if given enough time.
That's how skewed it is. Someone literally soloed a 90 dungeon with WAR, before they buffed Shake It Off and the damage output.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yWSYOahQEY

I'm not saying all tanks should be like WAR. If anything they should take away self-healing from WAR.
I personally use WAR for dungeons most of the time but come on, this is too much.

Nevermind them soloing dungeons, a WAR solo'd the normal raids on release.