Dark Knight needs serious help

[Jonnycbad]

Pld healing is just as bad as war healing. Have you seen the heal potency on holy spirit and blade combo
It's several THOUSAND potency in healing. Not to mention the free 400 potency every 1-2-3 combo from divine might. Throw in clemency and Holy Shelton and they give war a run for their money in total healing....

How about when TBN shield breaks it puts a 400 potency regen on the drk for 12 seconds. The other 15s tank cooldown have some kind of heal or regen except drk

[Zeastria]

How about this:

- Remove selfsustain from tanks.(heal abilites)
however they will keep the combo "heal".

- Buff the defensive abilites and inc some of their duration..
Add 15% on the current % ( so Rampart will go from 20% --> 35%..ect.)
Mob dmg should be inc by 10% to compensate for stronger def cds.

Bosses barly do damage outside their abilites, so to keep healers and tank more busy ..
Boss's Auto attack DMG should be inc by 50%-60%..
(hard to tell if u can't see it in action)

[Absimiliard]

Man, ya'll just really want tanks to be helpless without healers, don't you?

[Zeastria]

Man, ya'll just really want tanks to be helpless without healers, don't you?

Nah, just more defined role identity and value.. when playing together..
Whats point of having Tank/Healer/DPS ..if they're not depended on one another to reach their goal?

[PercibelTheren]

Man, ya'll just really want tanks to be helpless without healers, don't you?

Not at all. A tank who mitigates properly still has a LOT of durability. Whenever I run stuff with a DRK main friend of mine, I'm always amazed by the fact that he seems to just not take any damage. If anything, the ridiculous sustain of WAR and PLD means they never learn to use their mitigation properly because they don't need to. Then they stumble into something like The Tower of Zot where the adds actually hit decently hard (in leveling gear anyway), and they fall flat on their face because no amount of healing tools can outheal the combo of a tank not using their CDs and DPS not dealing much damage by virtue of having trash gear.

If we must have a tank that requires little skill due to having at on of healing, then let it be one of them. Don't make them all like that, please.

[Absimiliard]

Not at all. A tank who mitigates properly still has a LOT of durability. Whenever I run stuff with a DRK main friend of mine, I'm always amazed by the fact that he seems to just not take any damage. If anything, the ridiculous sustain of WAR and PLD means they never learn to use their mitigation properly because they don't need to. Then they stumble into something like The Tower of Zot where the adds actually hit decently hard (in leveling gear anyway), and they fall flat on their face because no amount of healing tools can outheal the combo of a tank not using their CDs and DPS not dealing much damage by virtue of having trash gear.

If we must have a tank that requires little skill due to having at on of healing, then let it be one of them. Don't make them all like that, please.

WAR and PLD sustain doesn't reach what one might consider ridiculous levels for quite some time, particularly in the case of the latter. If you've not learned how to mitigate by then, well, pretty clearly getting access to healing tools was never the issue. At that point it's a lack of willingness to learn issue, not job ability issue. You're also greatly overestimating the kind of durability WAR and PLD have in the absence of their self-healing Even assuming flawless execution of all mechanics and perfectly timed mitigation tool usage, they're not going to match DRK in this department. Their kits are designed around the idea they'll be self-healing in addition to mitigating. There's also the matter of player fun to consider. Do you know how many people enjoy WAR and PLD in large part because they're so effective at self-sustaining? People sure don't go to them for the DPS.

At any rate, I think another part of my point might be unclear. At present, there are things in the game -- things you do by yourself, not necessarily with a group -- PLD and WAR are only able to do because of their ability to self-heal. Should that be removed, they would need to be compensated either with more mitigation tools or additional damage in order to continue doing these things. There's a lot more to factor into this than the fact some healers aren't happy about being optional in max level dungeons.

[PercibelTheren]

Should that be removed, they would need to be compensated either with more mitigation tools or additional damage in order to continue doing these things. There's a lot more to factor into this than the fact some healers aren't happy about being optional in max level dungeons.

I would agree with you if WAR hadn't been getting such preferential treatment for a while. I was mostly fine with them being virtually immortal in most content because they were paying for it with lower damage. If you wanted a DPS tank, you would reach for GNB or DRK, if you wanted more survivability, then WAR and PLD were your go-to. Except then WAR players threw a hissy fit about their favourite tank not being meta and WAR's damage got buffed. Their mitigation isn't that far behind the tanks with less sustain, either.

Why is it that RDM has to pay for having Verraise but WAR gets to be the best at everything? That's perhaps what annoys me most about the entire situation.

[Absimiliard]

I would agree with you if WAR hadn't been getting such preferential treatment for a while. I was mostly fine with them being virtually immortal in most content because they were paying for it with lower damage. If you wanted a DPS tank, you would reach for GNB or DRK, if you wanted more survivability, then WAR and PLD were your go-to. Except then WAR players threw a hissy fit about their favourite tank not being meta and WAR's damage got buffed. Their mitigation isn't that far behind the tanks with less sustain, either.

Only damage and mechanical competence really matter in endgame content. A tank's ability to sustain itself is regarded as a secondary to these concerns by most high-end groups. As a result of the emphasis on damage, WAR and PLD just weren't considered particularly desirable. I don't think people wanting enough damage to be competitive were unjustified. The problem, ultimately, isn't tanks not dying -- it's their utility. WAR and PLD are very good at keeping other people alive as well, and GNB is okay at it. Most of what ya'll have a problem with would go away quick if they simply cut back overall tank group utility and mitigation, started putting in more enemies that deal high unavoidable damage, and brought enrage timers back into the equation.

It doesn't need to be the tank specifically healers are focused on healing, does it? Let them enjoy themselves by being for the most part self-sustaining. Being the last one standing won't do them any good if they're up against an enrage timer, although to be blunt, I am to this day confused as to why some people are so still mad that tanks can solo bosses in low-end content.

Why is it that RDM has to pay for having Verraise but WAR gets to be the best at everything? That's perhaps what annoys me most about the entire situation.

Because SMN and BLM pitch a fit whenever RDM tries to rise above the rez mage meme. RDM has seen periods where it had respectable damage, but SE's weird hate-boner for them combined with the incessant whining of SMN and BLM mains inevitably saw them cast back down into the pits.

[Supersnow845]

Man, ya'll just really want tanks to be helpless without healers, don't you?

As the others have said no we don’t want the tanks to be helpless but nor is it fair for a healer to zone into a level 90 dungeon, see they have a PLD or WAR and realise their entire third of the trinity is entirely useless for this dungeon and they are basically going to be playing a gimped caster for the next 20 minutes

WAR and PLD sustain doesn't reach what one might consider ridiculous levels for quite some time, particularly in the case of the latter. If you've not learned how to mitigate by then, well, pretty clearly getting access to healing tools was never the issue. At that point it's a lack of willingness to learn issue, not job ability issue. You're also greatly overestimating the kind of durability WAR and PLD have in the absence of their self-healing Even assuming flawless execution of all mechanics and perfectly timed mitigation tool usage, they're not going to match DRK. Their kits are designed around the idea they'll be self-healing in addition to mitigating.

At any rate, I think part of my point might be unclear. At present, there are things in the game -- things you do by yourself, not necessarily with a group -- PLD and WAR are only able to do because of their ability to self-heal. Should that be removed, they would need to be compensated with massively improved mitigation and damage just to make up for what was taken away. There's a lot more to factor into this than the fact some healers aren't happy about being optional in max level dungeons.

Sustain tanks being able to solo things that shouldn’t be soloable should never factor into balance decisions mr WAR already has the most damage anyway

They could literally nerf bloodwhetting so that it only hit once per GCD not once per enemy and WAR would go back to being decently balanced

[Supersnow845]

A few things to note.

1.) WAR's damage ceiling is still lower than DRK's, but they are definitely worlds better off than they were.
2.) No one even mentioned things being soloed that shouldn't be soloed. What?



It's been the sustain tank for quite some time now. I can only assume they'll eventually decide to shake up meta by moving that crown to one of the others somewhere down the line, as has been their m.o.
Not gonna lie, I've kinda got a sinking feeling about WAR in Dawntrail. People have spent an entire expansion railing against them. A massive kneejerk reaction crippling them would not be surprising.

You said “things you do by yourself you don’t do as a group” the only thing that would apply to that involves needing that high sustain is WAR and PLD being able to solo content they shouldn’t be able to solo, otherwise the content is also balanced to allow DRK to do it therefore meaning that PLD/WAR’s self sustain is excessive