Dark Knight needs serious help

[Zairava]

Man, ya'll just really want tanks to be helpless without healers, don't you?

Responding to this like 2 months late, but, no. I want healers to actually need to heal me and others in a game where the holy trinity is involved. Otherwise what's the bloody point of having them?

It is indeed funny how when in new EX my co-tank DRK was eating dirt due healer not topping him for White Hole while 8x WAR can easily clear it https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1945423090 as they can self heal through that

That's not a DRK issue, though. That's a "WAR has too much healing" and the healers either having a skill issue or ignoring them until it was too late, put bluntly. There's a lot of healing tools healers have at their disposal, so much to the point it'll be considered detrimental soon if it isn't already.

There's a lot of issues with DRK right now, but not being to invalidate healers isn't one of them. I would MUCH prefer they actually worked on its combat identity before anything.

[Supersnow845]

^i agree here

This thread can basically be boiled down to “DRK’s damage identity is garbage but the actual problem with tank balance is WAR is the best at everything including being a healer”

DRK needs a damage redesign and maybe a reduction in abyssal drains CD but really it’s WAR that needs to be nerfed

[Rithy255]

To me its not just a warrior issue nor is it a Dark Knight issue fully, Personally I'd like some form of sustain on dark, I think very slow overtime self healing would make sense on dark instead of "Unga bunga i press button in aoe now im max hp" I think Dark Knight has so many issues gameplaywise but sustain isn't really something that im worried about too much More the entire DPS rotation feels awful and dark mind not really feeling good in physical fights (even if they're rare in high end)

The thing is if that tanks should have low or no sustain is kind of interesting... because on one hand we would be giving healers more to do, but on the other hand that would be taking away more from tanks Personally I really enjoy the sustain you get on PLD or GNB (But imo holy magic healing can be removed for some other sustain), in general it feels nice to have some team support/party healing as a tank.

The main issue I see is encounter design is already designed for healers to be dpsing 99% of the time, even in a situation where you'd have two dark knights, the majority of healer gameplay wouldn't be changed, EVEN in dungeons where the DRK has high gear and is wall to walling you will hardly feel a difference (At least from my experience, in the newer dungeons where mobs have been made to hit easier, the 6.0 ones felt like they hit harder)

I don't think the solution is to take sustain from tanks in a drastic sense, warrior's AOE healing needs to go imo even if its just casual content, besides I think warrior is a bit too good at everything in regards to tanking, I think if you took sustain, timed party mitigation/healing from tanks, then you might as well remove tanks all together, turn them into melees give all melees stances or something lol because tanks in ff14 are basically just DPS with lots of hp and some utility.

In a Ideal world I'd want even more utility on tanks, but i'd also want healers to feel more impactful, I guess theirs just issues with balancing that out in general, I think healers and tanks are in general very important to make fun and engaging as they're both the less common picks, DPS is popular with most players... But it feels like theirs actually less effort put on to make tanks and healers more appealing lately, that and 2 extra DPS next expansion makes me wonder how miserable everyone will be if nothing really big changes about how both work next expasion, It would even hurt DPS players having to wait ages for people to fill in for tank/healer

[Valknut]

I think if the damage disparity was as big as the self healing disparity. No one would be playing WAR.

Every time I do a dungeon on DRK instead of PLD/WAR it feels bad, it feels like I'm spitting on my healer and party.

"But dungeons dun matter" Hi my names busy adult with kids and limited time, dungeons and extremes are as far as I'm ever going in the game. Would DRK having self healing effect Ultimate raid balance? Probably, from the 95% of the population that doesn't do ultimates, ya we don't care, you guys gonna play w/e is meta anyway.


EDIT Bring back DRK HW gameplay, please stap adding more OGCD's that just do dmg or 10% mitigation.

[Rithy255]

I think if the damage disparity was as big as the self healing disparity. No one would be playing WAR.

Every time I do a dungeon on DRK instead of PLD/WAR it feels bad, it feels like I'm spitting on my healer and party.

"But dungeons dun matter" Hi my names busy adult with kids and limited time, dungeons and extremes are as far as I'm ever going in the game. Would DRK having self healing effect Ultimate raid balance? Probably, from the 95% of the population that doesn't do ultimates, ya we don't care, you guys gonna play w/e is meta anyway.


EDIT Bring back DRK HW gameplay, please stap adding more OGCD's that just do dmg or 10% mitigation.

For the dungeon point, I rather heal a DRK then a warrior by far, Warrior is really boring to heal, at least when im healing a dark knight I can actually throw a ogcd heal here and there. If you compare the 6 msq 6/0 dungeons, to the 6.1+ dungeons the later half feels like it was made to accommodate DRKS lack of self healing and having a magic defensive, tbn not being great in aoe, at least I remember I actually had to cycle my mits on PLD/GNB properly on the 6.0 Dungeons compared to 6.1+ Dungeons do matter! that's why no tank should have aoe sustain like warrior, it's not fun for healers, it's not fun for tanks (well i guess if you like pressing one button...)

DRK Needs a overhaul for sure, defensively it could use some adjustments slow sustain (not burst like war), would fit it, Dark mind being less clunky, I'm not the biggest fan of TBN or oblation but I know people like TBN because it's "risk reward". Rotation wise I think it feels even worse to play, Honestly It feels like it was just overloaded with OGCD's to disguise the fact it's literally just warrior, Dark knight needs its own unique rotational based identity.

I guess my main worry is that a Dark knight "rework" will most likely just make it more boring and samey, which is something I don't want either.

[Supersnow845]

For the dungeon point, I rather heal a DRK then a warrior by far, Warrior is really boring to heal, at least when im healing a dark knight I can actually throw a ogcd heal here and there. If you compare the 6 msq 6/0 dungeons, to the 6.1+ dungeons the later half feels like it was made to accommodate DRKS lack of self healing and having a magic defensive, tbn not being great in aoe, at least I remember I actually had to cycle my mits on PLD/GNB properly on the 6.0 Dungeons compared to 6.1+ Dungeons do matter! that's why no tank should have aoe sustain like warrior, it's not fun for healers, it's not fun for tanks (well i guess if you like pressing one button...)

DRK Needs a overhaul for sure, defensively it could use some adjustments slow sustain (not burst like war), would fit it, Dark mind being less clunky, I'm not the biggest fan of TBN or oblation but I know people like TBN because it's "risk reward". Rotation wise I think it feels even worse to play, Honestly It feels like it was just overloaded with OGCD's to disguise the fact it's literally just warrior, Dark knight needs its own unique rotational based identity.

I guess my main worry is that a Dark knight "rework" will most likely just make it more boring and samey, which is something I don't want either.

“Warrior is really boring to heal”

Yeah because you literally don’t need to heal a WAR at all

Most experienced healers in the game don’t like WAR because it means we just get to spam glare all day which is boring enough even when we do have stuff to heal

(A note I know this is your point I’m not disagreeing, just adding my annoyed voice)

[Rithy255]

“Warrior is really boring to heal”

Yeah because you literally don’t need to heal a WAR at all

Most experienced healers in the game don’t like WAR because it means we just get to spam glare all day which is boring enough even when we do have stuff to heal

(A note I know this is your point I’m not disagreeing, just adding my annoyed voice)

Yeah I think the solution is pretty obvious for warrior at least, we don't need to nerf self sustain (that much, honestly can go down a bit for all tanks) But I think the solution for AOE Is just make warriors self healing like PLDS magic attacks where its not for each and every enemy. I think nerfing numbers beyond that is fine or fights should be designed around tanks actually having high sustain :/ I also think warrior is just outright really unfun for anyone who mains another tank, I know i don't like "click the blood whetting button". I want healers and tanks to actually work together at keeping the party alive, it would be really healthy for the game imo.

Honestly the game needs to let tanks pull more for the sake of my enjoyment and healers enjoyment as well, It's really annoying getting walled off at 2 mob packs... let skilled tanks and healers pull more, Wall to wall isn't really a requirement for dungeons so it would actually give us something to do.

EDIT:
just to add I think they could honestly get away with doing more raid wide and aoe damage in bosses, right now its just usually "stack" or a few spread out mechs, theirs just not a lot of damage outgoing I think it's also partly a item level synch issue at least in "casual content"

[Amenara]

Maybe I am crazy but I have been doing dungeons and whatnot on my PLD and my HP barely moves throughout the entire dungeon unless I stop paying attention and forget to press any CDs. I get dungeons don't matter but that is where the self healing seems to be the biggest complaint.

All that being said, I am not opposed to making all tank self healing/sustain worse, have more outgoing damage, and making everything have less HP to compensate for healers not being green dps all the time.

[Rithy255]

Maybe I am crazy but I have been doing dungeons and whatnot on my PLD and my HP barely moves throughout the entire dungeon unless I stop paying attention and forget to press any CDs. I get dungeons don't matter but that is where the self healing seems to be the biggest complaint.

All that being said, I am not opposed to making all tank self healing/sustain worse, have more outgoing damage, and making everything have less HP to compensate for healers not being green dps all the time.

If you go back to the 6.0 (msq dungeons not the unlock ones), I actually have to try on PLD with defensives, it's a lot easier then DRK, but im still cycling my buttons properly.
If you're on the optional ones or 6.1+ then I totally agree I feel like im taking zero damage, but that's how it feels on pretty much every tank. Even on Dark knight I don't feel any dmg but If it's one of the msq dungeons I'm struggling hard and 100% dependent on my healer at all times.

I think they can actually balance PLD's and GNB's sustain for dungeons, they should make mobs hit harder and let you pull way more then 2 packs, for warrior all you'd need to do is make blood whetting not aoe as that's going to be gamebreaking in any sort of dungeon content, I don't think it's fun for healers to not heal at all in aoe.

[Amenara]

If you go back to the 6.0 (msq dungeons not the unlock ones), I actually have to try on PLD with defensives, it's a lot easier then DRK, but im still cycling my buttons properly.
If you're on the optional ones or 6.1+ then I totally agree I feel like im taking zero damage, but that's how it feels on pretty much every tank. Even on Dark knight I don't feel any dmg but If it's one of the msq dungeons I'm struggling hard and 100% dependent on my healer at all times.

I think they can actually balance PLD's and GNB's sustain for dungeons, they should make mobs hit harder and let you pull way more then 2 packs, for warrior all you'd need to do is make blood whetting not aoe as that's going to be gamebreaking in any sort of dungeon content, I don't think it's fun for healers to not heal at all in aoe.

I think the issue you would run into with the lack of AoE healing on Bloodwhetting is that it would be an inferior damage reduction CD and would have to be buffed to compensate and put it on the same level as something like Shelltron. Then again, I think the easier answer might be to just drop a lot of the self healing from all the tanks or make it more of a long CD and put the healing requirements back on the healers so we can just stop having the balance argument on it.