2 tanks and 4 dps can beat P9?

[LilimoLimomo]

what if, the two ppl who 'left the fight' early on the 8man casual raid were both dps, and then the 6 remaining ppl still cleared the duty? how would ppl feel about that? would it make you feel that DPS is unneeded to an extent?

There are 3 primary aspects that makes these situations meaningfully different:

• Damage determines when a fight is completed, healing determines if a fight is completed*
• DPS roles have lower responsibility than Healers
• DPS roles always has a job to do, while the job Healers have to do is determined by the encounter

Damage determines when a fight is completed, healing determines if a fight is completed*

In a fight without enrage, outgoing damage only determines when a fight is completed, not if. Because as long as you're alive, every class is capable of doing at least a tiny amount of damage, and over time even a mild amount of DPS will eventually lead to the death of the boss. However, you cannot take this same approach to healing, because below a certain rate of healing your group dies and you literally fail.

DPS roles have lower responsibility than Healers

Because of the previous point, DPS roles have a lower level of responsibility than Healers. If a DPS role slips up their rotation or even dies, their reduced DPS does not put the party at risk.* Reduced healing can put the party at risk of death and wipes. Thus, healers not only have the responsibility of preventing failure, but additionally share in the lesser responsibility that DPS roles have, since a Healer that allows a DPS role to die has played a part in reducing the DPS of the party.

In my opinion, I think it's a good thing that different roles have different levels of responsibility. Some players want more responsibility, some want less, and this lets them all play together.

DPS roles always has a job to do, while the job Healers have to do is determined by the encounter

Realistically speaking, you cannot design a fight where DPS roles don't have a job to do; you would have to bend over backwards to do so. Because as long as there's an enemy — which is the whole point of every encounter — there is an HP pool that needs to be drained. By definition, until an encounter ends, there is a need to deal damage.

The same can't be said for Healers. A Healer's job is to keep the party alive. Any time the party isn't at risk of eventual death is a moment when Healers do not have a job to do. Put another way, the need for Healers is relative to the magnitude of harm the encounter deals to the party. Below a certain threshold, Healers will spend a significant amount of each encounter without a job to do. And below an even lower threshold, Healers won't even be needed to do what little job there is to do.

*The only exception to this is content where there is a time crunch mechanic that is guaranteed to wipe the party if some entity isn't killed quickly; in these specific circumstances, Damagers also take on the role of making sure that the encounter doesn't fail.

[Ianmaru]

There are 3 primary aspects that makes these situations meaningfully different:

• Damage determines when a fight is completed, healing determines if a fight is completed*
• DPS roles have lower responsibility than Healers
• DPS roles always has a job to do, while the job Healers have to do is determined by the encounter

Are you talking about FFXIV? Or about a game design that you think ideal? Or some other game?
Because this is definitely not the casual content in FFXIV is. The fact that the game gives some means of HP recovery to tank & dps is so the party can survive without healer. the game gives offensive skills to tank & healer so the party can kill the boss without dps. the game gives personal mitigation tools to dps so the party can survive without tank. the game is trying to make every role equal, so none of the roles feels more important than any other roles, which I personally think a good thing.
In casual content, all the roles equally don't matter.
In hardcore content, all the roles equally matter.

[LilimoLimomo]

Are you talking about FFXIV? Or about a game design that you think ideal?

I encourage you to re-read the details of what I wrote and not just the bullet points; if you do, I think you'll find that what I described is how FF14 plays now. I didn't explicitly state it, but hopefully it's clear that when Healers have less of a job to do, they have proportionately less responsibility. Which leaves us where we are now.

the party gives personal mitigation tools to dps so the party can survive without tank.

These mitigation tools generally have a short duration and a long cooldown. They do not give DPS roles the ability to sustainably act as a tank in at-level content.

The fact that the game gives some means of HP recovery to tank & dps is so the party can survive without healer.

It's only in Endwalker that at-level content has been sustainably survivable with dead healers. And what the intent is, only the devs can say. But in previous expansions, your group wasn't going to survive for long with downed healers in at-level content.

[Ianmaru]

It's only in Endwalker that at-level content has been sustainably survivable with dead healers. And what the intent is, only the devs can say. But in previous expansions, your group wasn't going to survive for long with downed healers in at-level content.

which is an improvement, no? they seem to be moving toward the equality of the roles in terms of importance. you would rather have a game where a certain role has more importance than the other? despite it being inequal? each to their own I guess. but again I personally think it's just fair that a content that can be cleared without dps / tank, can also be cleared without healer.

[LilimoLimomo]

you would rather have a game where a certain role has more importance than the other?

I'm questioning whether you actually read what I wrote, because I explicitly stated my opinion on this and my reasons.

[Ianmaru]

I'm questioning whether you actually read what I wrote, because I explicitly stated my opinion on this and my reasons.

oh yea I did read all of them. what about you though, did you read my first reply completely? everything you said on your reply to me are already answered on my first reply.

actually lemme just answer them one by one

[Ianmaru]

In a fight without enrage, outgoing damage only determines when a fight is completed, not if. Because as long as you're alive, every class is capable of doing at least a tiny amount of damage, and over time even a mild amount of DPS will eventually lead to the death of the boss. However, you cannot take this same approach to healing, because below a certain rate of healing your group dies and you literally fail.

yes, correct. but then the game gives tank & dps the capability of healing, to avoid getting to that 'below a certain rate of healing your group dies' in casual content, even when you have no healer. the same way the game gives the tank & healer the capability of dealing damage so the party can also clear it without dps in casual content. which is fair.

Because of the previous point, DPS roles have a lower level of responsibility than Healers. If a DPS role slips up their rotation or even dies, their reduced DPS does not put the party at risk.* Reduced healing can put the party at risk of death and wipes. Thus, healers not only have the responsibility of preventing failure, but additionally share in the lesser responsibility that DPS roles have, since a Healer that allows a DPS role to die has played a part in reducing the DPS of the party.

In my opinion, I think it's a good thing that different roles have different levels of responsibility. Some players want more responsibility, some want less, and this lets them all play together.

having different level of responsibility is fine. but making one role more important than the other simply because of their responsibility is something that FFXIV seems to be moving away from, again, to make all the roles equally unimportant for casual content, and equally important for hardcore content.

Realistically speaking, you cannot design a fight where DPS roles don't have a job to do; you would have to bend over backwards to do so. Because as long as there's an enemy — which is the whole point of every encounter — there is an HP pool that needs to be drained. By definition, until an encounter ends, there is a need to deal damage.

The same can't be said for Healers. A Healer's job is to keep the party alive. Any time the party isn't at risk of eventual death is a moment when Healers do not have a job to do. Put another way, the need for Healers is relative to the magnitude of harm the encounter deals to the party. Below a certain threshold, Healers will spend a significant amount of each encounter without a job to do. And below an even lower threshold, Healers won't even be needed to do what little job there is to do.

firstly theres no casual content (except the old ones) where the party can survive when the healers dont heal at all. (when they dont heal, the tank/dps do the healers job to heal for them). and when they dont have to heal, their job is help killing the enemy faster by using the raid buff & the offensive skills.