For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Shurrikhan]

<snip>

My main issue with trying to warrant limits onto a specific job on the basis of enough people wanting it across that job's whole role... is that they are two very different levels. We might as well say that across all roles, enough players dislike casting spells that one (existing) Caster shouldn't be allowed to have casts, or that enough players dislike positionals that one (existing) Melee shouldn't be allowed to have positionals...

Perhaps if it were a new job, at least, I'd be less miffed by the idea, but even then, it seems unfair and unnecessary to hold back anyone its appeal to anyone would otherwise want to play with that job's aesthetics and gimmicks to that arbitrary limit, especially when engaging with, say, those positionals would still be only one among myriad optimizations and would be entirely excess to clear requirement anyways for all but certain Ultimates.



On the other note, obviously cognitive load is not actually split into 'healing optimization' and 'damage optimization', and to give such a warrant to say that adding complexity to healing is fine while adding it to damage is not would be... pretty absurd.

However, keep in mind that raising party sustain requirements can come with decreased party DPS requirements, even if only by just buffing healer potency-per-GCD, and the diminishing returns on effort put toward either purpose (not wiping now due to not meeting sustain checks vs. not wiping to enrage from low healer DPS) might have separate and perhaps even different curves (devoting one's attention towards not wiping now may reward one's efforts overall than just slightly making up for the DPS falling behind), so in that sense that fiction/analog can still indirectly have some use.

[SargeTheSeagull]

I started frequenting the forums about a year and a half ago now and idk which impresses me more: That Ren is still this stubborn and has refused to acknowledge that he may be incorrect about literally anything. Or that all of you people keep constantly feeding someone who obviously doesn't want to discuss anything and just wants people to agree with him/is trolling.

[ASkellington]

I started frequenting the forums about a year and a half ago now and idk which impresses me more: That Ren is still this stubborn and has refused to acknowledge that he may be incorrect about literally anything. Or that all of you people keep constantly feeding someone who obviously doesn't want to discuss anything and just wants people to agree with him/is trolling.

Why not both? Healers are BORED my guy. We've got nothing better to do, doubly so when DT isn't set to release until next year.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Why not both? Healers are BORED my guy. We've got nothing better to do, doubly so when DT isn't set to release until next year.

I've joked before with my circle back in ShB that sifting through forum dumpster fire thread has been much more 'fun' than doing 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 in-game.

Look at what have I become today... ._.

[Sebazy]

I've joked before with my circle back in ShB that sifting through forum dumpster fire thread has been much more 'fun' than doing 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 in-game.

Look at what have I become today... ._.

Depressingly true, I have to remember to log on these days so I don't get my forum access revoked and house demolished. Truly huffing the 7.0 copium at this stage.

[Renathras]

I started frequenting the forums about a year and a half ago now and idk which impresses me more: That Ren is still this stubborn and has refused to acknowledge that he may be incorrect about literally anything. Or that all of you people keep constantly feeding someone who obviously doesn't want to discuss anything and just wants people to agree with him/is trolling.

What's funny to me is people keep parroting this same talking point when I've outright said I was wrong about a number of things in the past and even use soft/non-certain language ("I think" or "best I can remember" or etc) about things I'm less certain about.

Everyone insisting I never admit being wrong - much less "refuse to acknowledge that (I) may be" - is just lying. I'm just not sure why people are so dedicated to that lie.

I'm not sure what's unclear about it. You admit to wanting the skill ceiling barely above the floor, both at ankle height frequently enough. I merely point out that the Occam's Razor'd explanation for this:

Disparaging and killing nuance is generally going to get you the wrong answer. Doubly so when I've frequently told you you were wrong about what I think. So much so I don't even bother anymore. When you're telling someone else what they must be thinking, even when they've corrected you so many times they don't bother anymore, you're in the wrong.

Thinking about this, most of what I see on reddit, on here, and the few times I go on youtube videos, are not 'keep one healer the same'.

Considering I've literally quoted posts and comments form people saying this here before - in conversations you're in and possibly directly to you - I find this dubious.

At the risk of oversimplification, it seems we have two general groups of people:

1) Those who want more healing.

2) Those who MIGHT want more healing, but think that it will break the game somehow OR that it will just get "solved" a little later (higher ilevels into the tier) and get them back to the same point, so want more damage instead.

There are other groups besides this, though.

3) Those who genuinely like things as they are and kind of want things to stay the same.

4) Those who want to be doing more non-healing, non-damage stuff like buffing or mitigation or movement speed or etc.

5) Those who have no real strong feelings, who mostly are fine with things now, wouldn't mind some changes if they had a Genie lamp and wishes, but are more or less content with the way things are and will take or leave changes.

It's easy to forget the other groups exist, or overlook them. It's kind of like polling which of the two major political parties people support when ~40% of the population (a plurality) identify with neither party and would like an alternate choice of some kind, or a reversion to some prior status quo, or just don't care.

That's the problem with the "damage or healing" ultimatum; it ignores that a lot of people want a different option entirely. And for at least some of the population, the genuinely means "no change". While I doubt it's enough to justify NO CHANGE AT ALL, I think it's fair to say it's enough to justify a pocket of the role exist in that way.

.

I'd say the same in reverse, btw.

If we had some kind of poll and 10% said they wanted more damage buttons and no one else wanted them, I'd say that's enough to justify taking at least one Healer Job and giving it more damage buttons for the sake of those people.

Perhaps if it were a new job,...

I mean...SGE? This is basically SGE. A brand new Job added in EW under this existing paradigm, largely considered easy (the second easiest after WHM and an easier version of SGE). It's basically that very thing.

This is standard Ren "If YOU have an opinion, you need collated survey data that proves a supermajority of everyone on Earth agrees with you in order for your opinion to matter at all.

Oh, and this:

No.

As usual, Semi, you're completely wrong. Again.

Shurrikhan doesn't seem to want to actually address my arguments, so is trying to get off on a technicality. As I pointed out, her demand of proof of support applies to her own position, not mine. My position is not a change to the entire role that denies anyone escape if they don't like it. Meaning her proposal is the exclusive one that should have universal approval to be adopted.

Mine, on the other hand, allows both sides to be happy with it, meaning it has a far lower threshold of only requiring a minority to want one to be unchanged in order to justify itself.

Note that she wasn't able to prove that there IS universal support - because no one can. It's kind of an impossible thing to prove. Which is why making decisions that would require it is a bad idea.

so we'll need to truncate WHM

/sigh

Okay, Shurrikan, define the word "truncate" please.

"truncate" does not mean "maintain the status quo" or "remain in the state it is in".

"to shorten or reduce" is the common definition of the word via dictionaries. Not "maintain in its present state". You'd have to be REMOVING things from WHM to "truncate" it. Leaving it as it is or only making modest additions are not "truncate". Leaving it as it is is just leaving it as it is. No truncation at all. Adding something to it - anything to it - would be extruding, not truncating.

So again, truncate does not seem to mean what you think it means.

Would you be so kind as to DEFINE THE WORD, please? I'd like to see what definition you're using that has "stay as it is" as "truncate". So what definition are you using of the word, if you please? I want to make sure my disagreement with you here isn't just because you're using a word wrong/with a non-standard definition.

[Shurrikhan]

truncate

To shorten or limit the extent something, usually by cropping or precluding its upper end.

Job A is permitted to expand its kit organically to whatever extent of resultant complexity, from current level G to figurative Z.
Job B is permitted to expand its kit organically to whatever extent of resultant complexity, from current level G to figurative Z.
Job C is permitted to expand its kit organically to whatever extent of resultant complexity, from current level G to figurative Z.
Job D is permitted to expand its kit only from its current level of complexity G to at most as far as H. What potential it had for a higher end is cropped. / Its current kit, which would otherwise be able and expected to expand, is bounded at a lower ceiling.

As in: "Joe and Tom work for the same company, having started at the same time under the same salary, both gradually increasing their salary with their achievements as they accumulate raises. Tom gets in an accident, afflicting him with a TBI. Though he retains the same salary as before, he no longer moves up the rungs as he had before. His career prospects have been truncated."

We're discussing opportunities for change and improvements here. It makes no sense to say that you are not asking for reductions to what changes or improvements are allowed just because they are not currently in the game and cannot therefore, by a certain semantic twist, be curtailed, reined in, or truncated.

[ASkellington]

Honestly, 10% isn't good enough justification for a job remaining the same.

I'm not saying that your wishes shouldn't be considered at all (for example, say if the 10% want to keep a job approachable for new players) but much like the healing role shouldn't be designed for anything other than healer mains, a job shouldn't be designed solely around 10% of the population.

[ChonkGoblinSuprem]

Could you highlight one of those DPS players?

Not really. I don’t keep a Death Note for people who are mildly annoying to me in video games.

I remember a while back one tank (not strictly a DPS thing, I was being hyperbolic for rhetorical emphasis) who went on about how “he did his time” as a healer after intentionally pulling too big of a pull and wiping the party to teach me a lesson because I dared to use Physik in a 30-40 Leveling dungeon. At the time I had a crossbar set up for lowbie stuff and one set up for 50+ stuff and Physik was good enough when people weren’t being jerks. I dropped the duty. Adlo isn’t that much better

The last one started in on a whole lecture of how I should tank differently in party chat after we had completed the duty and I just ignored them, left the duty, and the healer gave me a commendation.

Right... that's why it has so many long-time healer mains, present or former, whose play-history you've been able to reveal as a cloak of deception from your vast knowledge as a level 65 who only just started into the paid game within... the last 11 days?

I’ve been paying for the game since long before I hit level 60 so I could use retainers. I didn’t sign up for the forums until recently, is that what you are talking about with that 11 days comment?

Nice try at Gatekeeping tho baby. :^*

[Post]

Legit Physick and Adlo were both meant to be used until like... HW and Emergency Tactics at the very least. People talk about replacing those basic heal GCDs, but SCH's is actually still better for throughput, and especially if your target isn't being depleted of their shield before the next cast (they normally aren't).

It's just that they don't design damage for healers needing to actually cast heals. Also, ET's cooldown was shortened and Adlo's potency went up, so eh. Definitely still good at level 50, though.