For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Shurrikhan]

YAgain, Energy Drain with a set 20 sec CD and no resource cost vs current Energy Drain. Which has a higher skill ceiling?

An action for which there are competing uses for its time and therefore requires a degree of encounter knowledge (and over your party's playstyle, if they're allowed any exchange between outputs) in order to optimize your outputs around it vs. an action for which there are no competing uses for its time.

Which has the higher skill ceiling?

Or, more apt to the actual discussion (of GCDs, not oGCDs):

An action for which there is a specific point in time for which its use is, in itself, most rewarded (atop its reward for any allowances it makes for improved use of other actions) vs. an action for which there is no specific point in time for which its use is, in itself, most rewarded (leaving only its reward for any allowances it makes for improved use of other actions).

Which has the higher skill ceiling?

The difference between a traditional DoT (prior) and your suggestion (latter) are the points in bold.
__________________

When the DoT gives nothing in itself to optimize beyond whether you hit it at least n times per minute, regardless of the timing of those applications -- no way to extend or have decreased how much total potency it grants in itself, no shifting opportunity costs either in itself nor due to the actions surrounding its optimal point of application, you have, yes, reduced its skill ceiling.

Here's a typical DoT:

• T-1 tick's time = n/n ticks' potency
• T-2 ticks' time = n-1/n tick's potency (See how it gets faintly weaker?)
• T-2 ticks' time = n-2/n tick's potency (See how it gets slightly weaker still?)
• Etc., etc.

Yours:

• T-1 tick's time = n ticks' potency
• T-2 ticks' time = n tick's potency (See how it value stays exactly the same?)
• T-3 ticks' time = n tick's potency (And the same again?)
• T-(n-1) ticks' time = n tick's potency (All the way until you can use it twice or more in a row at zero cost / i.e., with nothing therein to have optimized?)

You've made all the would-be optimization of the DoT, in itself, effectively fool-proof.

You've taken all the optimization the DoT could offer in itself, and which was synergetic with the complexity its bundled utility could offer, and removed it, leaving ONLY bundled utility on what amounts to a soft CD in place of a DoT's gameplay.

So yes, the result of your suggestion is thereby going to be less complex, because there is LITERALLY LESS TO OPTIMIZE.

You've decreased both the difficulty in "decision-making" and the difficulty in "execution", so to speak. While you are correct that such reduces the skill floor, how you'd think that increases the skill ceiling is, yes, beyond me.

_____________

You had Challenge A and Challenge B. The two were not anti-synergetic; though their combination had a higher floor, so did they together have a cognitive load higher than the sum of what they'd produce individually.

You then removed Challenge A, leaving only Challenge B, unchanged in itself. And you're insisting that somehow it's become MORE complex for having done so.

[ForsakenRoe]

I was explaining why they aren't the same. I'm sorry the concept of "Here's how those two things are different" goes over your head. In simple terms, WAR doesn't have extra decision making because, outside of trying to use Storm's Path instead of Storm's Eye during burst, there's no time that you need to pool Storm's Eyes.

Unless you're using a Path/Eye decision at 30 gauge, and your raidbuff window is about to expire in 2 or 3 GCDs time (since Heavy Swing doesn't give gauge), therefore Path = one extra Cleave in raidbuffs and Eye = not getting the FC into the buffs, it doesn't really matter which you use, because they're the same damage, I think? So with the move from 'refresh as close to expiry as possible, factoring in combo execution time etc' to 'you can stack it to 60, just bear in mind that you want to lose 15s off of it in time for IR to replenish it' which in practice is just 'use 2 more Paths instead of Eyes', complexity has been lost because of 'effect now stacks to 60'. It's not our fault if you cannot see the comparison between it and a DOT like Dia. It's also not really ideal that SE has made it so that there's no true comparison, as to have a 'real comparison' would require a cast time filler, and an instant DOT. The only classes like that are the healers. BLM has it's procs, but that kinda doesn't count because it adds the initial damage to the cast as well as replacing the DOT, though that actually ADDS complexity because the 'total damage' of the DOT varies based on remaining duration of the previous application, so the longer you wait the more value it gains

I guess the best example is old SMN, thanks to Bio being instant. If you could refresh Bio and Miasma to 60s ala Surging Tempest, you'd do so with Miasma, and leave Bio at 30s. Then when you need to move, you have one GCD where you can 'lossless' refresh Bio without it getting higher than 60s. You gain a mobility option, with zero downsides or thought required beyond 'remember not to refresh it beyond 30s unless you're moving, so that you can refresh it beyond 30 as a movement option'. Or if you're hyperoptimizing, you would extend both during raidbuffs, and never touch them until they expire fully so as not to overwrite the snapshot, which... leaves us basically where we are now, but you're moving the <even>:30 refresh forward by 27ish seconds.

I just don't get what making the DOTs stack to 60 actually solves, or why this is the 'best solution'. If anything, them being so long in duration is part of the issue with them, maybe we should look at making them deal their full effect faster rather than making them last so long. Some dungeon bosses live for less than 60s, making them be 'apply DOT twice at start, then cast filler for literally the whole fight' is not good

I had thought of giving that mechanic to WAR or DRK before, in keeping with their self-sustain (former, in DRK's case), but if there's to be a Time Mage added, it's kinda nice not have already used it. Cool, cool.

Just had another idea, TIM can be a 'stance dancer' caster. Red Shift can slow effects down, causing Comet to take longer to land, the DOT to last longer, and the cast times on all spells to be longer but upfront potency is harder hitting (for example, filler spells go from 2.5s and 250p, to 3.0s and 300p. Same ppm technically). Conversely, Blue Shift (a term I didn't even know existed), speeds things up, so your DOT lasts less time when applied under it, Comet takes half as much time to land compared to base time, and filler spells have shorter cast times allowing for the same level of slidecasting mobility as a healer (GCD is still 2.5s). Additionally, could tie resource generation to Red Shift/Blue Shift, so you need to alternate between the two stances to keep the bars equalized. Or perhaps you could have the two stances use the same moves in different ways. For example, what about a skill that, under Red, is a 30s DOT totalling 350p, but under Blue is instant damage totalling 300? Under normal circumstances, you'd say 'why bother with Blue', but what if we then make this skill have a 15s CD? Now you'd want to Red for the DOT refresh, then Blue the offset one for instant damage. Even the filler could be like this, Red making it deal, say 250p, plus 50p as a 3s DOT (guaranteed one tick), and Blue making it 250p flat, so you'd want to alternate.

Now I'm thinking, what if the two stances swap on every GCD automatically as a trait...? The 'tick-tock' effect on the gameplay would be very thematic to a Time Mage, and would require thinking ahead a lot to make sure that 'oh in 3 GCDs I'll be in Blue Shift when my DOT needs refreshing, I'll have to delay using the skill by 1 GCD' or 'I need to refresh it early or I lose duration to the downtime coming up' or even 'I will forgo using the DOT reapplication entirely, as there's downtime coming so soon that the DOT will lose too many ticks compared to the flat damage'. damn I should have made a full design brief and put it in the DPS forums but I'm lazy/tired/don't want to balance potencies

Event Horizon sounds like a banger LB3 name

[AmiableApkallu]

A stacking Dia affords flexibility, which is what leads to a higher skill ceiling. Right now, refreshing Dia every 30 sec no matter what is how you play. That's not difficult. You don't move it, so there's no optimization. It's the same thing as saying casting Glare each time the GCD rolls over is skill ceiling (also easy to do against striking dummies, btw). On the other hand, a stacking Dia means you CAN just push it twice and then...refresh it once every 30 seconds. Making it the same difficulty as non-stacking Dia. OR you can refresh it later (with less than 30 seconds remaining). But the consequence of this is that the specific Dia optimal refreshes may now vary from fight to fight or even within a fight during different mechanics. By your metric, it is more difficult to determine what is optimal within the constraints of the fight, and more difficult to execute than current Dia, which is just pressing the button once - never more and never less - every 30 seconds. Something a literal dipping bird could do.

At T = 0 sec., we cast Dia. At some point in the next 30 seconds, we feel the temptation to hit Dia again. Why? You mentioned movement, so let's go with that: ease of movement. Here's how this plays out.

With a non-stacking Dia, the first inclination is to "git gud" and actually manage to pull off a Glare. You have to plan out your movement well in advance of that moment, and then execute on that plan, which might depend on improving your stutter-stepping skills. A stacking Dia lets you decline that form of movement planning and optimization. You hit the button and call it a day.

On the other hand, maybe it truly is a case where pulling off a Glare is impossible. With a non-stacking Dia, it now matters when this moment happens. If it's at T = 5 sec., you'd be overwriting so many ticks of the Dia from T = 0 that you should have actually cast Glare at T = 0. If it's at T = 25 sec., you overwrite a few ticks, but it's not nearly so bad as casting absolutely nothing. A stacking Dia lets you decline that form of timing and damage optimization. You hit the button and call it a day.

In fact, so long as these moments of "tempted to hit Dia for movement" happen at least 30 seconds apart, optimal play for a stacking Dia can just be:

• Cast at T = 0, 30, 60, 90, 120….
• Give into those moments of temptation and hit Dia.
  

A non-stacking Dia would have you walk through the thought process above for every single moment of temptation. And should some of those moments of temptation come less than 30 seconds apart, the optimization problem with a stacking Dia is going to be no more challenging that it is with a non-stacking Dia.

In essence, a stacking Dia raises the damage ceiling (the job can be expected to do more damage) but not the skill ceiling (the optimization problems range from non-existent to no more challenging than non-stacking Dia).

[ChonkGoblinSuprem]

I’m not an “endgame” player and I don’t really have any “main,” but in the lower level content, healers are the lynchpin of the entire party. I swapped from my starting class of PUG/MNK to ACN/SCH pretty quickly and never looked back. SCH is my highest level class, but I’ve been grinding RDM and PLD the past couple weeks. Standing in the thick of it blasting Art of War or weaving heals between Ruins or Broils to keep the tank standing tall has been a lot of fun. Honestly my main issue as a healer has been imperious DPS players condescendingly trying to tell me how to do my job to better suit their tastes, kinda like how this whole thread is DPS players butting into the Healer forum to waggle their staves and rapiers around.

[Sebazy]

I’m not an “endgame” player and I don’t really have any “main,” but in the lower level content, healers are the lynchpin of the entire party. I swapped from my starting class of PUG/MNK to ACN/SCH pretty quickly and never looked back. SCH is my highest level class, but I’ve been grinding RDM and PLD the past couple weeks. Standing in the thick of it blasting Art of War or weaving heals between Ruins or Broils to keep the tank standing tall has been a lot of fun. Honestly my main issue as a healer has been imperious DPS players condescendingly trying to tell me how to do my job to better suit their tastes, kinda like how this whole thread is DPS players butting into the Healer forum to waggle their staves and rapiers around.

Could you highlight one of those DPS players?

[Shurrikhan]

kinda like how this whole thread is DPS players butting into the Healer forum to waggle their staves and rapiers around.

Right... that's why it has so many long-time healer mains, present or former, whose play-history you've been able to reveal as a cloak of deception from your vast knowledge as a level 65 who only just started into the paid game within... the last 11 days?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I mean... the title of the thread itself says "Main/semi-main DPS but likes healer", so I guess that's what they meant? lol...

[ASkellington]

I mean... the title of the thread itself says "Main/semi-main DPS but likes healer", so I guess that's what they meant? lol...

Meh. I'mma give Renathras credit and say what he really means is either "previous healer mains who switched off to a dps or sort of mains a dps" or "people who like healers (usually) in a MMO but are playing a dps in FFXIV instead" why? Its just... worded oddly I guess? I dunno. I had no issues with inferring the title.

[Renathras]

Meh. I'mma give Renathras credit and say what he really means is either "previous healer mains who switched off to a dps or sort of mains a dps" or "people who like healers (usually) in a MMO but are playing a dps in FFXIV instead" why? Its just... worded oddly I guess? I dunno. I had no issues with inferring the title.

It can probably be thought of as inclusive. To be fair to the new guy, a lot of people have a DPS class listed as their main class on their profile thingy.

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Dia discussion:

I guess we just think of skill ceiling differently as well. For my part, I think there can be no skill without choice. If there's a rigid framework that has only one path, at some level, that's not about skill, it's about memorization. While mechanical dexterity can be a kind of skill, it seems more...I dunno, can't think of a word for it, but "thing you can do perfectly given enough repetition". "something practiced to the point of automaticity".

When I think of skill, I think of actively making decisions in the moment to react or pro-act to situations either as they develop or as one sees them developing. This requires choice and flexibility. To my way of thinking, a rotation without flexibility is an exercise in muscle memory, not active decision making. So that's why I prefer rotations and skills that work with flexibility and reward thinking through encounters and where you place them within encounters, reacting smartly to developing situations, or planning ahead and flexing your skills in such a way to optimize upcoming mechanics and thereby optimize your overall fight performance.

This isn't to say that mechanical perfection isn't hard, but it's a different kind of hard and one I don't find engaging. I prefer strategy and tactics over rote memorization fueled execution, I suppose.

[Supersnow845]

^in the current healer design the flexibility comes from the healing side

Going back to the example of storms eye the complexity of an equivalent DOT isn’t current Dia is rigid while storms eye Dia gives choice therefore storms eye Dia must be more complex, it is the fact that in a healer rotation the 21111111112111111 is fixed and you need to plan the healing around that

Using an example of chances of lost dot ticks
If Dia is rigid

Refreshing at time n ticks after reaching 0 seconds = 0 then lost damage = 0
Refreshing at time n ticks after reaching 0 seconds = n then lost damage = n ticks
Refreshing at time n ticks after reaching 0 seconds = n+1 then lost damage = n+1 ticks

If Dia is not rigid

Refreshing at time n ticks after reaching 0 seconds = 0 then lost damage = 0
Refreshing at time n ticks after reaching 0 seconds = n then lost damage = 0
Refreshing at time n ticks after reaching 0 seconds = n+1 then lost damage = 0


So this becomes the problem, dia itself isn’t good, I for one hate modern DOT’s that have zero interaction with the kit (this includes DOT associated abilities like queen, dark passenger and deaths design) and it’s so frustrating SCH originally did have 2 skills that interacted with DOT’s (namely bane and shadowflare) but lost them. Now as for attempting to make modern DOT’s slightly more interesting I’ve always suggested having DOT ticks proc something it the DOT is up long enough (biolysis could proc quickened aetherflow if it’s up for the entire 45 seconds of your initial aetherflow so it doesn’t mess up the timeline, e dosis could proc a toxicon stack, Dia could proc overcure, combust could proc an extra charge of redraw), something that rewards you for keeping the dot up but only works if you don’t overwrite it with more than 5 seconds left

That would be my patchwork fix to modern DOT’s (though I still think bane aero 3 and shadowflare have absolutely no reason to not still be in the game) but overall something like this would be more of an interesting way to give DOT’s uniqueness without attempting to implement a storms eye style system to feel like you are introducing false choice which simulates complexity (while actually making it easier)