What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[ForsakenRoe]

Oh and as a sidenote does anyone else feel Anima could have been a proper awesome standalone trial? Bit of a waste but, ah well. You can't have it all.

I'm personally fine with Zod being at level 83, if he was the final boss it'd have been super predictable and that's no good. But, one way I could see it have going quite well is if the push to Garlemald and retaking the capital was fleshed out to a full expansion, and Anima was the final boss of that, with the shocking pre-fight cutscene (equivalent to Zenos fusing with Shinryu in SB, or the whole Emet/Ardbert bit in SHB) being the revelation that Anima is the emperor's corpse reanimated by primal-ing, would land pretty well I think. Would also allow for Ilsabard to be a bit more fleshed out in terms of geography, maybe we do a SB style pincer attack and have Gyr Abania side push on one front, and Nagxia/Dalmascan zones (sp?) on the other

Then I'd make it so that for EW (now being 90+), same bosses. But if I was in charge of everything it'd be said, at any media stuff/fanfests/everywhere gaming journalism has ears, that 'when you have finished the story, you will be level 99, as homage to some of the older games'. If asked about 'why not 100 like other older games', I'd just say 'it was a tough decision because yes some are 99 and some are 100, but in the end we went with 99'. However, during the final fight when the 'big hero moment' kicks in, you temporarily break limits (something something dynamis) and become level 100. You gain access to the 'level 100 skill' as a Duty Action (20s CD, no other restrictions like gauge costs), having never been shown anywhere before, so everyone's losing their minds mid fight because they just got to see Double Down or Primal Rend for the first time. The boss's reaction of 'how are you getting stronger' and frantically flailing in desperation is wholly justified, as you've apparently just mastered a completely new move seemingly instantly, with zero practice beforehand. After the fight, you keep the new level 100 move, but are returned to level 99 so as to preserve the surprise, and it has the new restrictions like Gauge cost or longer CD (blame it on 'there is less dynamis to work with back on home planet' or something).

Lastly, in the final duel with clingy ex BF, instead of having 6 stacks of 'extra lives', you have infinite, it's a victory lap of sorts. Your goal would be to drop Zenos a certain number of times, as currently. After he drops the first time, he does his reaper fusion thing still, after that though, is different. Instead of instantly 'killing' you every time you 'kill' him (very stale imo), he doesn't do that. Instead, each time he or you drop to zero HP, you immediately restore to full HP with that glow around you (cos dynamis), without losing control of your character (no down for the count rubbish), and your level increases. At first, by small increments, 105, 110, 120, but then 150, 200, 300, 500, and finally if you somehow die that many times, 999. With this, your damage numbers and HP values also increase to insane amounts, and as Zenos gets beaten over and over, his 'level' increases too, with his HP bar getting larger and larger, his attacks doing more and more damage, with the scaling being such that each consecutive phase is shorter than the last (the level ups get faster and faster), eventually the two of you reaching the point where you're doing literal millions of damage per GCD against each other, because there's no other point in the game that it'd make narrative sense to have numbers like that, and it'd be cool to have just one time. Tell me WAR mains wouldn't enjoy seeing their Fell Cleave crit for 3.2 million damage

Maybe kinda cringe, but hey we're playing FFXIV, that's a bit cringe by default

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

I enjoyed the story. The last 1 vs 1 fight was really good. Made me smile.

[Teraq]

Man. I resubbed for 30 days (RIP there is going to be a free login campaign) because my brother asked me to run new content with him, and because I'm such a good sister, I paid up spent a good 10 minutes navigating the Square Enix website to find where to do that and remembering to turn off my browser's security and confidentiality settings because for some reason SE's website has problems with that.

So far, I played for one single day and instantly regretted it. I could not manage to care the least bit for the MSQ and stopped after the dungeon. I'll see if my brother wants me to run the Golbez trial with him… playing with someone might be the only thing motivating me to bother anymore. It might just be that only the start of the patch is unbearably slow slice of life and generic aether stuff that almost feels like ARR quests, but I can't say I am even interested enough in Golbez to grin and bear it and continue. Between the story, the lack of exploratory zone, the least inspired relic ever and generally short-lived new content, I feel like I'd rather be doing anything else than play FFXIV.

Maybe I should ask him to pay me back…

So apparently there was a fan fest and we're going to Not-America with the Scions.
ok.
I didn't bother to actually watch the trailer for myself, but I see we have fully abandoned any pretence of a new main cast, and no, I unfortunately cannot bring myself to care that the throwaway NPC from the most boring zone of Endwalker is coming with us.
Usually they reserve the bigger twist for the subsequent fan fest, anyway. But there is just so little that interests me in this story anymore, and even if SE were to lure me in with the prospect of characters I like being back in the limelight (picture, if you will, YoshiP dangling Ascians from a fishing rod), I would be feeling very cautious and weary about it.


I suppose I am echoing a number of other people in this thread with this empty "I suppose it's over, huh" feeling.



I do find it mildly funny how certain people seem to be wanting to use "you were never going to get the story you wanted [points to A REALM REBORN being largely two-dimensional] so why did you remain for so long!!!! (thinly-veiled insult on intelligence)" as some sort of excuse for Endwalker being a quite lackluster conclusion to an 8-year arc.
That the initial writers said the Ascians were never meant to be more than generically evil mysterious bad guys in the shadows in ARR means literally nothing. The story of FFXIV had always been a "mystery box" type of plot with numerous writers, leaving doors open for later developments. To take what Endwalker ended up being in 2021 – an ankle-deep Light Mommy Good, Men In Sinister Robes Bad And Ultimately Wrong – and point at what A Realm Reborn was like in 2014 as evidence of what the story would end up like is rather fraudulent, because we know for a fact that is not how the writing process worked. The writers were perfectly free to take the arc into a direction wholly different from what seemed to be universal truths in ARR; the story was never planned out this far in advance. Hindsight is 20/20, and I wonder what tune these people would be singing if Endwalker had followed up on the more nuanced premises Shadowbringers had teased us with, such as the Ascians having an attainable goal and a point you could imagine yourself agreeing with if you were in their shoes, or Hydaelyn being a primal – with all the consequences that should come with that – whose human name is a reference to a series antagonist. How could anyone honestly take these Shadowbringers plot points and come away with the conclusion that people who expected the Hydaelyn/Zodiark finale to be far more muddled, morally speaking, are really just a bunch of delusional idiots?

I, quite honestly, feel deceived by 6.0. So many elements follow the model of getting you excited only to deliver a lukewarm resolution. Hydaelyn and Zodiark are actually big ol primals? Well don't worry, only the bad one tempers (whatever his tempering is actually supposed to manifest as – this has never been made very clear) and has identity and memory issues – you're all perfectly safe and she's golden! Zenos dreaming of the Final Days, ooooo what could this mean? Well actually, it just means that Emet-Selch had sex. Zodiark actually is that one guy who's been in the story forever? GASP– well technically he was, and this really is just an excuse for a power-up for the MSQ trial, because actually the conclusion of Zodiark's story doesn't really feature him. Hydaelyn's real name happens to be VenatFinalFantasyXII?? Well in this case we'll make it plainly evident the ends justify the means so the player doesn't have to strain a brain cell thinking too hard about morality! Horrifying towers of the apocalypse full of brainwashed hostages? It's fine, they just disappear without a trace and everyone is safe everywhere, also we have piggies! Zenos steals your body in a brilliantly creepy cutscene? Oh it's fine, he doesn't hurt anyone!

I'm personally fine with Zod being at level 83, if he was the final boss it'd have been super predictable and that's no good.

Frankly, I don't think predictable has to mean bad. Sometimes predictable means delivering on expectations properly, build-up culminating in a satisfying conclusion, characters and plot following an internal logic.
Personally I think that perhaps yes, Zodiark – piloted by Fandaniel and/or Zenos – should have been a final boss, or at the very least a penultimate one, with appropriately bombastic fanfare and awesome visuals. I think that as the background "threat" for the entire arc, it was the least he deserved for a satisfying conclusion.

Part of Endwalker's problems boils down to rushing through the Hydaelyn and Zodiark conflict to get to the Final Days and resolve that in the span of a single x.0. It shoved elements out of the way to make room for a plot that honestly could have been developed over the course of story patches and resolved in the next expac.

For example, fun factoid: did you know that Venat and Elidibus, whether as their human selves or their heart-of-primal selves, never share a single scene? At most we get Elidibus saying some lines to Hydaelyn (and only in not-English does he ever do so explicitly as Zodiark), but never direct dialogue.
For a story that was supposed to be the big finale of Hydaelyn/Zodiark, it sure could have done with more Hydaelyn/Zodiark.

Once, The Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity. And man assumed a fleeting form. These are the roots of our world. Men are props on the stage of life, and no matter how tender, how exquisite... A lie will remain a lie!

Brilliantly fitting.

Dynamis as it is written in the story is so mind-numbingly dumb. Whenever it's used to do something, it reminds me of that one kid at the playground who would always invent new superpowers that instantly counter anything you do, just so that he can always win.

Truth be told, I'm not even the type of person who likes character's death as catalyst for other character's development. Often times, it's lazy, and yes, edgy.

The originator of Zodiark Trance, everyone! Who would have thought that people are not the straw men some like to depict them as… Weird!

And yes. People focus on the lack of deaths complaint, but the thing is that Endwalker's lack of consequences is more generally applicable to any other sort of permanent setback for the main cast. All throughout 6.0 it feels like the tragedies and injustices happen to other people. Here lies NPC #7429; He Will Be Missed. Sharlayan was never hit by the catastrophe, it is still as cozy a quiet northern college town as ever – honestly my favorite hub alongside Idylshire, going purely by their aesthetics and vibe – our outrageously rich twins still have their mansion with their army of butlers, doting mom and stuffy papa wolf, and yeah if it wasn't for Y'shtola sometimes mentioning her blindness you'd forget about it altogether (speaking of… I can't remember how she is even supposed to see anything in Ultima Thule). So when you have the Scions preaching throughout Ultima Thule about suffering and pushing through the pain to live another day, it feels… unearned.

The theme of Suffering Makes You Stronger is part of the reason why the lack of consequences feels particularly egregious in Endwalker, but unfortunately it is also compounded by Endwalker being this big epic conclusion in general, which in turn serves to make it the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean, looking back, how long has it been since tragedy actually durably hit our main cast, and not just recently introduced NPCs adjacent to them? Papalymo? Arenvald is an okay recent one, but he's still rather secondary and I can't recall Alphinaud mentioning much of him in 6.0 MSQ… It's like all the setbacks we keep flashing back to happened in ARR and HW: the Crystal Braves and the banquet, Moenbryda, Haurchefant, Ysayle and Papalymo… Amusingly, the Aitiascope really drove that home.

All in all it shouldn't be a big surprise that Endwalker would be the tipping point that makes people say "enough with the plot armor". It isn't just the edge lords crawling out the woodwork.

Also just dropping this here, the product of a joint project of some of those of us critical of the story (or to some, 'Zodiark trancers'):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c98qO-wW30A

The remaining parts will be released gradually over the coming couple of weeks, so I'd recommend subscribing to the channel if these catch your fancy.

As ever, a link to the discord for those who'd like to catch up outside the thread remains active here.

I like how this serves as some kind of litmus test: do you have good enough faith to watch critical videos that were made by… (SHUDDERS) the Zodiark Trancers? I bet these guys skipped all the cutscenes and have no idea what they're talking about anyway, so, PASS, I'll just call the creator an idiot in the comments

(Also, me quoting this post most definitely is not just an excuse to bring up the discord link.)

[Xeronia]

Teraq you finally wore me down, I will join the discord if only because I really feel you on the "Well what do I do now" when my friend who I play with isn't around and hey I seem to get lumped in with you all anyway, may as well make friends.

I do seriously hope Dawntrail moves us onto something more interesting.

[Theodric]

I do seriously hope Dawntrail moves us onto something more interesting.

Likewise. Honestly these days the only thing I care about in the game is my house...I do hope that changes though as it stands I'm prepared to become a dreaded cutscene skipper.

[Absurdity]

as it stands I'm prepared to become a dreaded cutscene skipper.

I became one when I hit the Sharlayan filler hamlet, I just couldn't take watching these completely irrelevant scenes anymore which only existed to pad out the runtime.

It actually started to piss me off, they rushed through the Garlemald and Zodiark parts like they were trying to set a speed record but then I'm stuck twiddling my thumbs in a village for 2 hours with people I couldn't care less about and who will never be mentioned again afterwards? Are you kidding me?

Endwalker gave me tonal whiplash on multiple occasions.

[ReynTime]

I became one when I hit the Sharlayan filler hamlet, I just couldn't take watching these completely irrelevant scenes anymore which only existed to pad out the runtime.

It actually started to piss me off, they rushed through the Garlemald and Zodiark parts like they were trying to set a speed record but then I'm stuck twiddling my thumbs in a village for 2 hours with people I couldn't care less about and who will never be mentioned again afterwards? Are you kidding me?

Endwalker gave me tonal whiplash on multiple occasions.

Seeing as XVI has this exact same problem during 1/3 of its playtime I think CUB3 just thinks that's brilliant storytelling.

[Theodric]

I became one when I hit the Sharlayan filler hamlet, I just couldn't take watching these completely irrelevant scenes anymore which only existed to pad out the runtime.

It actually started to piss me off, they rushed through the Garlemald and Zodiark parts like they were trying to set a speed record but then I'm stuck twiddling my thumbs in a village for 2 hours with people I couldn't care less about and who will never be mentioned again afterwards? Are you kidding me?

Endwalker gave me tonal whiplash on multiple occasions.

I was really looking forward to Sharlayan as well. It had such cool and unsettling vibes to it at every point before Endwalker and then when we finally get there the game pretends as if there weren't really strange experiments left behind in the Dravanian Hinterlands/Isle of Val and the existence of assassination squads sent to enforce hoarded knowledge was simply swept under the rug.

All to make the place into a rather bland university town that is both isolated from the world at large but also incredibly diverse to the point where the super rare male viera have leadership positions. More consistency with the world building would've been nice.

[Vyrerus]

Seeing as XVI has this exact same problem during 1/3 of its playtime I think CUB3 just thinks that's brilliant storytelling.

To be fair, since it "works so well" in the well received XIV, they probably don't realize it's a bad thing.

[jameseoakes]

To be fair, since it "works so well" in the well received XIV, they probably don't realize it's a bad thing.

It's been kinda interesting seeing 16 seem to take a lot of bad lessons from 14 and get a fair kicking for it