Please dont bring back Relic Quest Zones

[Supersnow845]

The only reason BA outlasted in its longevity is because the process of actually doing it and clearing it is gated very hard behind a niche group of people. You're pretty much forced to go outside the game, join a specific discord and get into a BA run where you're being lead and carried by a group of very dedicated people whom bless their hearts are the only reason why that content is still doable for the majority of the playerbase who delve into Eureka for the first time. Do note that only BA is part of this. Thank goodness the other raids like CLL, Dalriada and Delibrum Reginae arent as obtuse to actually get in and do (you only need to shoot up a PF for DR)

Also god forbid any hapless group tries to do BA by themselves because these same group of people hold all the cards for these runs practically holding rights and reservations for anyone doing BA; and that in of itself I wouldnt call a good designed content. Why do you think they never tried to replicate it with Bozja and made the raid more streamlined? Granted BA is fun! but like I said, for most of the playerbase, its a hard requirement for you to join these groups where you cant even chat with the raid leaders and expect you to mute your mic so it kinda also fails a little bit of the social aspect of it. Im not blaming these guys at all btw, Im grateful for what they do and they HAVE to actually put in these restrictions for carries because of the nature of the content.

The reason why variants die quickly is because anyone can easily get to it with or without a group; as well as there is a manageable completion aspect to the content that doesnt overstay its welcome. Its not designed to be grinded out for the long term (despite its potsherd rewards).

So what if you need to join a discord outside the game to run the content, it’s an MMO you are supposed to team up with people and work with them, this whole idea that everything should be doable solo or with a set of randoms in PF is half the problem with 14, it’s the same as people who go into eureka, find it obtuse, don’t ask for help then complain eureka is obtuse, eureka is designed around cooperation and the fact that people like cooperating and helping is why eureka continues to live on and why people can still access it whenever they want

And I’ve never met a BA group who doesn’t let you chat (unless you want to talk about your dog during ozma calls), talk to the BA hosts and leaders, they are nice people and do the content because they like it

I still don’t see this as an argument against eureka’s longevity, it’s the oldest content run daily that isn’t on a roulette

[Atelier-Bagur]

I have my own share of criticisms for variants and criterion as well. The most agreed point is that of the shallow rewards for doing criterion. Variants however dont suffer from this as much because of the nature of wanting to complete all entries and getting all the glams and emotes. Besides fixing the rewards to be much better for Criterion (such as introduce an alternate way to earn guaranteed savage gear; perhaps on a weekly basis if you want to pad it out). I would propose that they do introduce a Variant Roulette now that we're getting our 3rd variant dungeon coming 6.5. Perhaps even make it a tad unique by offering additional bonus tomestone rewards for making the group try to follow specified routes.

[Gember]

I personally do struggle to go back to Bozja and Eureka, but that is not because its bad content. Its because its old content and the incentive to get a relic has a lot less reasons to it. It just boils down to glamour when the expansion for it ends. However there is a lot of players who still do the relic quest zones to this day despite it being old. As long as there is fun glam to be obtain, a system to socialize, and a fun zone to explore; its completely valid to want it.

[dspguy]

I think they mean it remains relevant within Eureka, as it has an elemental bonus within the relic stats.

I get the point. It still has value in a zone that yields weapons of little-to-no use outside of it. I'm cool with that. But that and BA isn't a legitimate argument that the pre-EW relic systems were any good. The fact remains that you only have a "top-tier weapon" for a few months by going down the relic path and then it is relegated to the glamour dresser. It isn't very "relic."

[TheNight]

So what if you need to join a discord outside the game to run the content, it’s an MMO you are supposed to team up with people and work with them

You forget that you're talking to a lunatic who played through the MSQ four times. They treat this game as a single player game.

[Kaurhz]

This is my major problem with exploratory content. It lacks relevancy very quickly, its padded out and its not interesting enough to hold "meaningful" retention. People diving into it nowadays are only doing it because they're tied to that expansion's relic; which is mostly used for glam as well as completing its story. What I propose is for the devs to not repeat into the same formulaic design choice with Eureka and Bozja and to transform it into something that's has more choices and substance to its design; without going to just designing the zone itself for the sake of a long grind.

Eh, there are still plenty of people that do regularly run it for other reasons be it for Gil or to complete the raid(s) (Which I would say could be a design flaw), or for the Bozjan notes completion for the mount. Once I'm all done collecting all my Kinna weapons, it's probably going to be my main source of content (BA - It was a really thrilling experience doing it, even when wiping, frankly) outside of my regular farming activities.

I wouldn't say it lacks meaningful retention, and nor would I say it loses relevancy quickly, it'll always be relevant in some shape. If you were to theoretically push it as a standalone and detach every reward structure, then maybe. But that would apply to every strand of content. I would probably argue that, if anything, it isn't very well future-proofed at all and the communal aspect has deteriorated in the case of Bozja. - I was doing Bozja a few months back to collect a few items for glam and to sweep up a Dalriada achievement (and still do pop in to level my alt). It's still as active as ever, but a lot of it is just "Lfg z3" - On top of this, if you look at how the general FATEs are (which dominate the majority of the time spent in Bozja" - Then these just fall over pretty quickly now. It's a pretty pathetic experience in this regard.

There's a whole host of problems with Eureka and Bozja, but IMO retention and relevancy aren't any of them. - I will agree with you though in that they don't repeat the same 'formulaic' design for the next iteration of exploratory content - But should instead look at transforming it and adding more substance. There is a lot they could do like incorporate gathering and crafting. The idea of crafting logograms and essences rather than farming them direct is a nice idea for me. For as substance-less as Island Sanctuary can be, there's still quite a bit of exploratory content that could pick up from it, albeit in a more substantiated design.

[AwesomeJr44]

You forget that you're talking to a lunatic who played through the MSQ four times.

I'm never going to not find that hilarious.

Again, no hate towards alts themselves, but how is this guy gonna say any of this with a straight face?

[Atelier-Bagur]

So what if you need to join a discord outside the game to run the content, it’s an MMO you are supposed to team up with people and work with them, this whole idea that everything should be doable solo or with a set of randoms in PF is half the problem with 14, it’s the same as people who go into eureka, find it obtuse, don’t ask for help then complain eureka is obtuse, eureka is designed around cooperation and the fact that people like cooperating and helping is why eureka continues to live on and why people can still access it whenever they want

And I’ve never met a BA group who doesn’t let you chat (unless you want to talk about your dog during ozma calls), talk to the BA hosts and leaders, they are nice people and do the content because they like it

I still don’t see this as an argument against eureka’s longevity, it’s the oldest content run daily that isn’t on a roulette

Again, the problem is because of the very gated nature of BA because of its complex and difficulty, its not even a fun thing because you're being solely carried and you're expected to not goof around and shut up and follow the raid leaders like an oiled machine. This feeling doesnt happen at all with CLL, Dalriada and Delibrum Reginae where because the content isnt so restrictive, people have more personal agency which is the ideal in an MMO space. I dont want to sound like I'm giving flak to the discord people who do BA runs because like I said, without them, BA would just be dead, but at the same time I blame its terrible design that forces the content to be ran this way. Its not fully fun. Most people who do BA are mostly just glad they're done and over with it, got their Ozma mount and leave Eureka. And again, the fact that BA is solefully ran by very few dedicated discords groups doesnt speak to how well it does for the majority of the playerbase. Eureka still has a bad stigma because of how tedious, long and boring it is.

Also ok, you say this is an MMO and I'm supposed to team up with people. Alright lets say I do that. Can I grab a few of my buddies and do BA by ourselves for the heck of it? No? Whats that, if I do so, we mess up those dedicate discord groups of their schedule because theres only 1 BA instance? Oh Im sorry I guess I cant.

[Supersnow845]

Again, the problem is because of the very gated nature of BA because of its complex and difficulty, its not even a fun thing because you're being solely carried and you're expected to not goof around and shut up and follow the raid leaders like an oiled machine. This feeling doesnt happen at all with CLL, Dalriada and Delibrum Reginae where because the content isnt so restrictive, people have more personal agency which is the ideal in an MMO space. I dont want to sound like I'm giving flak to the discord people who do BA runs because like I said, without them, BA would just be dead, but at the same time I blame its terrible design that forces the content to be ran this way. Its not fully fun. Most people who do BA are mostly just glad they're done and over with it, got their Ozma mount and leave Eureka. And again, the fact that BA is solefully ran by very few dedicated discords groups doesnt speak to how well it does for the majority of the playerbase. Eureka still has a bad stigma because of how tedious, long and boring it is.

Also ok, you say this is an MMO and I'm supposed to team up with people. Alright lets say I do that. Can I grab a few of my buddies and do BA by ourselves for the heck of it? No? Whats that, if I do so, we mess up those dedicate discord groups of their schedule because theres only 1 BA instance? Oh Im sorry I guess I cant.

The BA groups enforce people to run a particular way because if you go in and mess around like in CLL you will just get smacked by a rouge mob and die and then a healer has to spend a lot of money getting you up off the floor, and if you get smacked by an annoying mob (like a sprite or centaur) then you are endangering the entire group

And oh the front of “can I just get some buddies together and do a run” yes you can, just ask the discord for your server, they will make space if you want to do a private run, again it’s not hard to ask. This is what eureka is

[Atelier-Bagur]

I'm never going to not find that hilarious.

Again, no hate towards alts themselves, but how is this guy gonna say any of this with a straight face?

I fail to understand whats even the implication here and how this makes any of my points lack sense. I have yet to see you give any actual counter-arguments against what I stated in the OP. Unless you actually have nothing to add to the discussion