A question for SCH mains and enjoyers

[Renathras]

Just gonna focus on these bits

- It's not flimsy, it's reality. That it's largely irrelevant doesn't change the fact if a Tank doesn't hit any button but Provoke on CD, they will not maintain threat. It's kind of like noting that a SGE spamming Dosis IS healing because of how Kardia works. Dosis is a healing spell. So is Assize. The argument here is that encounter design/combat mechanics have changed, but perhaps they should not have.

- "It gives options?" How does "You can only use AF on ED" "give us options"? Only being able to use one ability isn't an option in any definition. Now, if you mean "you can use Soil and Excog and such without a damage loss", the equally valid and probably better solution would be to just remove Energy Drain and increase Broil's potency to make up for it. Upping Broil's potency by 10 or 15 would accomplish this, and now you have the options of what to use AF on. Alternatively, we could remove AF as a resource, have Faerie Gauge generate 30 every 1 min when you press the AF button. Now you don't need an "AF dump" since it can stack to 100, meaning you have over 3 minutes to use stacks, and now you actually want to use AFFG abilities. That's both less clunk and achieves the same goal in a better way. (Also, you can call what I think is fun and engaging "boring", but "clunky"? The only one of my proposals that could at all be clunky MIGHT be the SGE one. And ironically, that's more what most of you guys would prefer it be over what it is today...)

- Then make it something else? Miasma an instant cast GCD with a 20 sec CD that does Boil + 100 potency of damage and stacks to 3. There, I fixed the problem for you. Alternatively, if you prefer, we could make it a instant cast GCD with a 20 sec duration DoT that does a total Broil + 100 potency of damage. Either one achieves the same basic goal and does so more efficiently and more logically.

EDIT:

Agreed with this, though:

Very 50/50 on whether they hit or miss from what I've seen over the years, which means that on average, one of the two out of DRG or AST is gonna slap, and one's gonna be awful. And since we know SE does not have any healer mains on the design team, I know which I'm expecting to be the stinker

[ty_taurus]

- It's not flimsy, it's reality. That it's largely irrelevant doesn't change the fact if a Tank doesn't hit any button but Provoke on CD, they will not maintain threat. It's kind of like noting that a SGE spamming Dosis IS healing because of how Kardia works. Dosis is a healing spell. So is Assize. The argument here is that encounter design/combat mechanics have changed, but perhaps they should not have.

So bring back Flash for Paladin and give each Tank a flash equivalent:

Paladin: Flash
Warrior: Shout
Dark Knight: Horrify
Gunbreaker: Challenge

Each of these is an AoE GCD action that increases threat but does no damage. Now tanks can stop pretending to be DPS and just focus on tanking. While we're at it, we cut every DPS action except each tank's 1-2-3, but that 1-2-3 also reduces threat on your target, which is why you need to use Flash when main tanking.

[ForsakenRoe]

The best part of this is that you probably CAN keep threat on a boss by just using Provoke and autoattacking (probably don't even need the autoattacks). Back in SB it was found that you could keep threat by just using the 'circle shirk' to exponentially multiply threat, with how strong tankstance and Provoke's bonus threat are now I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible

Each of these is an AoE GCD action that increases threat but does no damage. Now tanks can stop pretending to be DPS and just focus on tanking. While we're at it, we cut every DPS action except each tank's 1-2-3, but that 1-2-3 also reduces threat on your target, which is why you need to use Flash when main tanking.

Funny you asked the tank forums 'would you like this' and got hit by 'this person should be ignored, very bad faith actor, they're just trying to create a healer discussion in disguise!', a very 'stop the count' moment

[vetch]

The best part of this is that you probably CAN keep threat on a boss by just using Provoke and autoattacking (probably don't even need the autoattacks). Back in SB it was found that you could keep threat by just using the 'circle shirk' to exponentially multiply threat, with how strong tankstance and Provoke's bonus threat are now I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible

IIRC, Provoke copies the top aggro and then generates an additional 2000 potency's worth of enmity, which is then multiplied by tank stance's 10X multiplier.

I don't know if that pseudo-potency is also multiplied by your strength or weapon damage or something, but I assume it is, since I do ranged attacks and provoke on longer pulls instead of an AoE because it usually holds threat to the end even against DPS who can burst on the run.

[ForsakenRoe]

IIRC, Provoke copies the top aggro and then generates an additional 2000 potency's worth of enmity, which is then multiplied by tank stance's 10X multiplier.

I don't know if that pseudo-potency is also multiplied by your strength or weapon damage or something, but I assume it is, since I do ranged attacks and provoke on longer pulls instead of an AoE because it usually holds threat to the end even against DPS who can burst on the run.

If that's the case, then to steal aggro from a Provoke only tank, a DPS would have to do (2000 x 10) potency within the 25s before Provoke comes back off CD. Not 20000 damage, 20000 potency. Is there even a class in the game that does 20000 potency in a minute, let alone 25 seconds? I know from maths I did a while back that WHM is around 8000 per min, maybe 'burst phase in raidbuffs' is enough on an exceptionally 2min heavy class like DRK or such but yeh seems kinda difficult to reach to me

[vetch]

If that's the case, then to steal aggro from a Provoke only tank, a DPS would have to do (2000 x 10) potency within the 25s before Provoke comes back off CD. Not 20000 damage, 20000 potency. Is there even a class in the game that does 20000 potency in a minute, let alone 25 seconds? I know from maths I did a while back that WHM is around 8000 per min, maybe 'burst phase in raidbuffs' is enough on an exceptionally 2min heavy class like DRK or such but yeh seems kinda difficult to reach to me

Yeah, I doubt it. A WHM with all healbuffs up spamming Cure 3 and oGCDs on 8 targets might be enough to rip aggro from a single Provoke before it cools down again.

[ForsakenRoe]

Yeah, I doubt it. A WHM with all healbuffs up spamming Cure 3 and oGCDs on 8 targets might be enough to rip aggro from a single Provoke before it cools down again.

IIRC overheal is also weighted at 0.5 threat per HP of Overheal (in contrast to damage's 1:1) so you'd actually have needed 40000 effective potency of overheal to rip threat, Cure3's 600, on 8 people, would be 4800, halve that (cos it's overheal) and you have 2400. So you could, I guess, cast 8 Cure 3's (20s, at 2.50 GCD), on a full team of 8 players, generate the required 20000 threat (and run yourself completely out of mana), and then have the tank... steal the threat back from you like 5 seconds later with their freshly reset Provoke? I guess that means that, while hard to time, it's technically possible for a healer to do this at just the right timing to snapshot a tankbuster onto themselves instead of the tank.

This nonzero chance, which can only occur due to the healer player being really reckless with their MP (to the point where no sane player would think to do it), clearly justifies the tanks having a rotation instead of one button spam like us /s
Hell, they even get to have at least 3 buttons to play with in AOE, we're stuck with one (well, two if you're SGE I guess) =(