A question for SCH mains and enjoyers

[Supersnow845]

So you're basically admitting that you're arguing in bad faith. The definition of echo chamber is "an environment in which a person encounters only beliefs or opinions that coincide with their own, so that their existing views are reinforced and alternative ideas are not considered". I see plenty of alternative ideas being discussed around, as do you, that makes these forums objectively not an echo chamber. You holding that position continuously while it can be disproved shows that you are in fact, engaging in bad faith in this instance. In fact, your very existence here contradicts your claim that the healer forums is an echo chamber.

It's also strange that you tend to lump everyone into an amorphous blob of "wants damage buttons" even when we place importance on different things. I myself care more about the homogenisation of the healing portion of the kits along with the heavy redundancies and the lack of any sort of cost for strong abilities in our kit. But sure, go off about how I only care about damage buttons.

People complain that skills like synestry and dissipation are badly designed when in reality it’s the fact that we now have skills like kerachole and pneuma which just straight up have no downsides and it’s never wrong to press them

Skills should have downsides, you shouldn’t have 5 options and none of them being wrong

[Semirhage]

People think that classes designed to spend most of their time spamming one button as their skill ceiling is boring? And want more to do with their downtime?

What. A crazy. Opinion. Only a true insular echo chamber could possibly reinforce. Such an outlandish. Idea.

[Renathras]

So you're basically admitting that you're arguing in bad faith.

No, I'm not.

If I'm not here, then the beliefs and opinions encountered are uniform/close enough to uniform and there's no dissenting view. Again, show me someone else here consistently at odds with the majority of you. Show me what those differences actually are. "alternate ideas" that are all in agreement with each other aren't alternate ideas. If you got a bunch of MAGA people together to discuss plans for border control and one suggested a fence while another suggested putting alligators in the Rio Grande and someone else is suggesting putting the military on the border to turn people away, that's still an echo chamber since no one is arguing against the whole affair, their "differences" are on "how to do this thing we all agree on", not an actual disagreement on the thing in question, and not actual dissent.

Also, that's not me engaging in bad faith.

Something I've noticed here - whenever I accuse someone else of a thing, several of you tend to try your DAMNEDest to accuse me of that same thing, even when it's wrong to do so, as Vetch pointed out. Your extreme reach and insistence on using the same insult instead of something else just to hope it sticks is based on a flawed belief that if you can accuse someone of doing something then this negates their initial accusation of that to someone else. It actually doesn't. It doubly doesn't when said person (me in this case) isn't doing the thing to begin with.

.

As to your second paragraph: I'm pretty sure when we talk about healing tools, homogenization is a constant complaint. Again, I'm the only frequent poster here who says that the Healers AREN'T homogenized.

In before everyone lines up (to prove me wrong) insisting all of a sudden, in conflict with their normal views, that Healers are totally not homogenized... <_<

This place...

People think that classes designed to spend most of their time spamming one button as their skill ceiling is boring? And want more to do with their downtime?

What. A crazy. Opinion. Only a true insular echo chamber could possibly reinforce. Such an outlandish. Idea.

Where did I say it was crazy?

I said it wasn't universal.

Not everyone does. When a place has all but one person doing so, and everyone is pretty consistently attacking that one person, then yes, that would be an echo chamber. ...also probably harassment and definitely bullying and brigading, not that anyone cares...

.

EDIT:

Actually, let's do a simple thought experiment.

If I wasn't here, what would everyone be talking about/disagreeing on?

"A summary of healer issues" - you all agree.
"One button DPS is bad" - you all agree.
"Healers are boring" - you all agree.
"Healers are homogenized" - you all agree.
"Healers need DPS buttons" - you all agree (again, with the caveat that SOME are okay with AST, and just AST, getting some buffs instead, and a lot of that thaw was actually due to me over time...but also you all kinda want another DPS button and more damage when soloing; speaking of...)
"Healers, especially AST, do too little damage when soloing" - you all agree.
"Healers should be rewarded for playing well with a more engaging DPS rotation for downtime" - you all agree.
"Healers shouldn't have simple gameplay" - you all agree.
"Healers should have a high skill ceiling (WHM can have a low floor, but its ceiling also needs to be high)" - you all agree.
"AST cards suck" - you all agree.
"SCH was better in SB" - you all agree.
"Healers in general were better in SB" - you all agree (I'm the only one who will CONSISTENTLY point out WHM was not better and was better in ShB and EW, which a few people seem to have grudgingly come around to admitting, but only with the caveat that "Well, SB WHM was just so bad, anything was better", not that ShB/EW WHM is actually good in its own right in any way.)

What EXACTLY do you disagree on?

You agree on all the major, overarching things.

What MAJOR things do you disagree on? If nothing major, what disagreement is there really, absent my voice?

[Aravell]

No, I'm not.

If I'm not here, then the beliefs and opinions encountered are uniform/close enough to uniform and there's no dissenting view. Again, show me someone else here consistently at odds with the majority of you. Show me what those differences actually are. "alternate ideas" that are all in agreement with each other aren't alternate ideas. If you got a bunch of MAGA people together to discuss plans for border control and one suggested a fence while another suggested putting alligators in the Rio Grande and someone else is suggesting putting the military on the border to turn people away, that's still an echo chamber since no one is arguing against the whole affair, their "differences" are on "how to do this thing we all agree on", not an actual disagreement on the thing in question, and not actual dissent.

Also, that's not me engaging in bad faith.

Something I've noticed here - whenever I accuse someone else of a thing, several of you tend to try your DAMNEDest to accuse me of that same thing, even when it's wrong to do so, as Vetch pointed out. Your extreme reach and insistence on using the same insult instead of something else just to hope it sticks is based on a flawed belief that if you can accuse someone of doing something then this negates their initial accusation of that to someone else. It actually doesn't. It doubly doesn't when said person (me in this case) isn't doing the thing to begin with.

.

As to your second paragraph: I'm pretty sure when we talk about healing tools, homogenization is a constant complaint. Again, I'm the only frequent poster here who says that the Healers AREN'T homogenized.

In before everyone lines up (to prove me wrong) insisting all of a sudden, in conflict with their normal views, that Healers are totally not homogenized... <_<

I disagree that this place is an echo chamber because the disagreement here doesn't cater to your lofty standards. We have disagreements here, that already breaks the definition of an echo chamber.

As to your claim that everyone thinks the exact same thing, I made a post in the summary of healer issues thread where I got multiple people opposed to my ideas, even you were opposed, that looks nothing like an echo chamber to me, there was proper and real discussion instead of a bunch of people nodding along and exclaiming "You're right!"

But let's phrase it another way, can you really claim you're here in good faith when you admitted that you're here to oppose an echo chamber? Can we really trust you to not be biased against everything we say? Perhaps you can claim to not be here in bad faith, but can we really say you're here in good faith?

[Supersnow845]

Such a good and popular idea we should totally make every healer have it with no alternative choice whatsoever

[Renathras]

The healer threads collectively attacking you renrathos is not an example of an echo chamber,

Note that isn't how I defined an echo chamber, so this is irrelevant.

it just means either your ideas are unpopular or people don’t like reading the silmarillion every time they go onto the forums

More the former than the latter, and more people disagree and are annoyed that one person in this forum isn't going along with them.

The healer threads are plenty diverse in how we want healers fixed

Oh REALLY?

And how are they diverse?

Every solution has to include a higher skill ceiling.
Every solution has to include more damage buttons.
Every solution has to alter the higher ability use of the main spam nuke.
Every solution must maintain the oGCD healing model.

Those don't sound particularly diverse. Multiple flavors of the same thing isn't diversity. Hell, I realize this so well, even though I LIKE current Healers, I still hold the 4 Healers Model as preferable because even if I like all of them, I think differences are good. And I don't just mean in a few buttons or effects or aesthetics, but also in things like skill floors and ceilings, lots vs few DPS buttons, spam vs non-spam, etc. These are all forms of diversity you guys are foreclosed against.

and are generally open to people who can present valid arguments as to why they like current healers,

HAHAHAH!

Sorry, but no. That's laughable. The caveat here is that you define "valid argument" so narrowly, there's no "valid argument" for liking current healers. It's like Ty telling me all the time the way I want to play isn't playing or is garbage and shouldn't be allowed. You can't say you accept valid arguments while constantly dismissing valid arguments as "the silmarillion".

we also don’t shut down arguments unless they are ones in which we have presented evidence as to why the opposing person is wrong

Also laughable.

Though I suppose it depends here on what we call "shut down". But when we're talking about things that are matters of opinion (what is or isn't good for the game, what people personally like, etc), yes, you do shut down arguments unless the person generally agrees with you (collectively). I presented an argument here - an in-depth one - about how Healers and encounter design have changed over time, and another about how Healers changed from SB to EW, including that WHM is less filler nuke spamy now than it was in SB (meaning it is better by the metric of "filler nuke spam is bad"), and yet have been "shut down" (attacked, threads derailed, when I mention it again in other threads, same result, etc) regardless, even though the evidence/data is on my side. Same with metrics of Healers being played, etc.

Again, there are examples of communities that are actually diverse on this topic. Go to Reddit's /ffxiv and post a thread asking people's opinions on Healers. You'll get a lot of people in agreement with those here. But it won't be monolithic like it is here. You will actually get people saying they like them right now. A few people when I posted those threads back a few months ago actually asked for DPS buttons to be REMOVED (that is, they wanted only one, so no DoT upkeep, etc) from Healers.

You may, of course, disagree with those positions, but if they aren't represented at all here, and only one general opinion is, then yes, this would be an echo chamber.

.

Anyway, there's literally no way to convince you guys of this - it's impossible, in general, to convince people in an echo chamber with which they agree that they're in and part of one - so I'm just not going to post any more on it. It's pointless. No evidence or argument I can present will convince you, so there's no point trying, I suppose, and the topic won't lead to anything useful anyway.

[Supersnow845]

And like I’ve said before you still miss what an echo chamber actually means, the majority of healer mains on here share a similar opinion, that does not make it an echo chamber, before the healer threads devolved into renrathos lashes out at every other person on here people came in here all the time and said they like x healer currently for whatever reason (generally it was WHM but eh), sure we might not have agreed with them but it doesn’t mean they weren’t entitled to their opinion and I can attest to the fact that while I still don’t like WHM a lot of those comments warmed to the job a lot more than I originally felt for it

Same as I don’t think semiharge, me, Reiner or any of the other chronic healer forum posters would be surprised to find current healers are more popular (though nobody can provide a shred of evidence they are despite us providing a mountain of circumstantial evidence), on top of this if a survey came out that said 95% of people preferred new healers I’d accept it and move on (I’d probably change roles but I wouldn’t try to stop people playing healer)

And your entire point that all our suggestions are the same is wrong as well, someone like 4 comments ago basically told you “stop putting words in my mouth I disagree with the idea that healing no longer has any downsides” just as I doubt you’ll find many of us on here who disagree with lilies or wouldn’t want more focus on GCD heals

So again I’ll say a group mostly unified in their opinion but is open to others and is willing to change if given contrary evidence is exactly not an echo chamber and at this point it’s not even your ideas it’s just the fact that you are instantly combative with every other poster that makes people dismiss you

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]If I wasn't here, what would everyone be talking about/disagreeing on?

"A summary of healer issues" - you all agree[...]

Is this referring to that megathread? (Funnily enough I just did a shameless bump minutes ago lol)

If you even bother to read first few couple of pages into the thread you can already see differing opinions, and that number only rise up the deeper you delve into the thread. You will even see some of the frequent posters' points gets opposed. (I.e. I remember ForsakenRoe pointed out some glaring issues I had on my proposed SCH adjustments that I thought it was good, nobody would refuse it. It made me 'oh damn, you're right, I should revise this...') Just because somebody agrees on a minor detail/minutiae, it doesn't mean it translates to "Yeah I agree with you wholeheartedly!". This is something that you tend to misinterpret VERY often.

Also lmao, "you all" ; "you guys"

Really?

[Supersnow845]

Reiner, semiharge, Ty and me are probably the 4 most prolific non renrathos healer thread posters and it’s fair to say we share very similar opinions, however none of us have refused to be open to opposing opinions, nor are we the entire healer forums