Request to adjust Criterion Rewards

[Tint]

Criterion dungeon rewards are exactly what they should be. Glamour, mounts, minions, and lore. It doesn't need to be an avenue for gear.

And what are your arguments?

I think it should reward gear.

A group of 4 players is much easier to build and manage than a group of 8. This group can be a group of close friends, while in an 8 player group you have to deal with people you barely know.

This means the barrier of entry is much lower, so the audience for Criterion is potentially bigger than for Savage Raids.

But Criterion lacks the reward. Why spend time learning the machanics when you don't get anything worthwile out of it?

With better rewards, like gear, Criterion could become the go-to endgame for a lot of people who would never touch savage because of the 8 people requirement.

At least the mount is less ugly this time around.

[Deo14]

Not on board with it giving an equivalent to Savage or Augmented Tome gear, especially not for Criterion Normal and not before the respective catchup patch (x.1, x.3, x.5 aka the Alliance Raid patches). 5 or 10 item levels below for normal is reasonable enough.

Criterion normal is a savage. Why shouldn't it at least give upgrade mats?

Criterion dungeon rewards are exactly what they should be. Glamour, mounts, minions, and lore. It doesn't need to be an avenue for gear.

It doesn't matter what your subjective ideal is, hard fact is that PF is having 1-2 criterion parties in prime time few days after it's release. Incentives are clearly not enough.

[Xelanar]

Not on board with it giving an equivalent to Savage or Augmented Tome gear, especially not for Criterion Normal and not before the respective catchup patch (x.1, x.3, x.5 aka the Alliance Raid patches). 5 or 10 item levels below for normal is reasonable enough.

Could you elaborate on why?
Is it because you believe 660 savage gear to be some sort of achievement that should remain exclusive to savage 8-person content?
Or is there another reason 660 savage gear exclusivity is important to you, and you do not wish for it to be obtainable by other means besides raiding at all?

[Tint]

Could you elaborate on why?
Is it because you believe 660 savage gear to be some sort of achievement that should remain exclusive to savage 8-person content?
Or is there another reason 660 savage gear exclusivity is so important to you, that you do not wish for it to be obtainable by other means besides raiding at all?

4 person groups are easier to build and manage than 8 person groups and this means Criterion would kill Savage Raids when the rewards are the same.

The reason again is that tomestone gear is just too strong. There is no room between tomestone and savage raid gear for another endgame gear set.

They have to make tomestone gear weaker, turn it into the wellfare gear it is and open up the path for more interesting endgame gearing steps.

When tomestone gear would be 640 and upgrades into 650 then we can have like

640 normal raid gear, 660 savage raid gear, 655 Criterion, 650 24 man raid gear and we even have room for a relic gear set which can be upgraded in easy content with a lot of grind.

But as long as tomestone gear stays 650 / 660 there is simply no reason to play anything else than expert roulette and savage raid and maybe the 24 man raid once a week. And that is the reason the game feels like there is no content.

[Nav_Fae]

Criterion gear being another 650 option so people had a third alternative between tome gear and savage gear for gearing options is such a fantastic idea it’s no wonder square decided to pretend like it wasn’t an option

The third option is Alliance Raids. If Criterion dropped 650 gear, then it would be a fourth option. Eventually the stats would have some overlapping where two different pieces of gear have identical stats and it becomes a "which is easier to get" decision. At the very minimum they definitely should have Coat and Twines to upgrade tomb gear.

[Absurdity]

I don't think you'd even have to shuffle the itemlevel around too much, simply adding 655 gear to criterion would make it a potential gearing option depending on substats. I'd take a 655 crit/det piece over a 660 piece with tenacity any day for example.

[Supersnow845]

The third option is Alliance Raids. If Criterion dropped 650 gear, then it would be a fourth option. Eventually the stats would have some overlapping where two different pieces of gear have identical stats and it becomes a "which is easier to get" decision. At the very minimum they definitely should have Coat and Twines to upgrade tomb gear.

Criterion in the future could be on patch 650 while the alliance raid is one patch behind 650, that way criterion can be used as a stop gap between the extreme weapon and savage gear

[Xelanar]

4 person groups are easier to build and manage than 8 person groups and this means Criterion would kill Savage Raids when the rewards are the same.

The reason again is that tomestone gear is just too strong. There is no room between tomestone and savage raid gear for another endgame gear set.

They have to make tomestone gear weaker, turn it into the wellfare gear it is and open up the path for more interesting endgame gearing steps.

When tomestone gear would be 640 and upgrades into 650 then we can have like

640 normal raid gear, 660 savage raid gear, 655 Criterion, 650 24 man raid gear and we even have room for a relic gear set which can be upgraded in easy content with a lot of grind.

But as long as tomestone gear stays 650 / 660 there is simply no reason to play anything else than expert roulette and savage raid and maybe the 24 man raid once a week. And that is the reason the game feels like there is no content.

I see. Well, that is a valid reason, even if it is an opinion I don't really share. People who do not raid for the sake of clearing the raid, but for the sole purpose of gearing up, may not like to see their achievement(aquiring BiS gear) diminished in value.

For me, gearing has always been nothing more than means to an end(and glamour). I would still clear savage raids if they only dropped glamour or vanity items, and I never really cared about what Itemlevel my jobs have, or if other people can get there more easily later on. As long as I take enjoyment out of the process, I'm fine.

I raid because it's fun, and I do not believe to be the only person who does so. Stating that removing 660 itemlevel exclusivity from savage raids would kill them, might be too extreme a statement, but I DO get the point you want to get across.

As someone who does not really enjoy having content gated behind gear requirements, I see no harm in having savage equivalent gear in criterion dungeons tough.

I guess it's just a clash of differing ideals and expectations.

[Nav_Fae]

The problem with gear is that gear is only necessary for Savage and Ultimates. There is simply no reason for a casual to need to further boost their item level no matter how much they may desire to do so. The lack of midcore content is a huge culprit for this. For those who want it as glamour, they just simply wait until they can unsync it in future patches. This is an intentional game design choice so that those who do work to earn the gear get a small window of opportunity to enjoy it before everyone else gets it essentially stress free. Unfortunately, until we get more involved Midcore content beyond Extreme Primals, there just isn't a reason to add alternative gearing options for casuals. Let alone with more interesting stats. Gearing alternatives like I mentioned earlier leads to stat overlapping where multiple gearsets have identical stats or one has objectively bad stats (Skill Speed), making it not even an option to consider farming for. Basically, my point is, is that the rabbit hole is a lot deeper than just add more gear because we need more content as a whole to make that gear worth having in the first place. Otherwise, this basically becomes an indirect nerf to Savage gearing. Having 660 gear anywhere outside of Savage would ruin any incentive a casual would need to do that. They already have to wait until the expansion is basically over just to finally upgrade their tomb pieces via Alliance Raid. Which again is still a weekly. If they ever add gear to Critieon, it almost definitely needs to be on a weekly lockout rule. Also, as Tint said, getting 4 people together is a lot easier than 8 people. Do not misunderstand me though, we really do need more gearing options. Even raiders want more options so they can raid on other jobs and not feel locked into a main. But I think the problem is a lot deeper than putting gear into Critieon. Because it impacts everyone as a whole, not just casuals. Not just raiders.

[Supersnow845]

The problem with gear is that gear is only necessary for Savage and Ultimates. There is simply no reason for a casual to need to further boost their item level no matter how much they may desire to do so. The lack of midcore content is a huge culprit for this. For those who want it as glamour, they just simply wait until they can unsync it in future patches. This is an intentional game design choice so that those who do work to earn the gear get a small window of opportunity to enjoy it before everyone else gets it essentially stress free. Unfortunately, until we get more involved Midcore content beyond Extreme Primals, there just isn't a reason to add alternative gearing options for casuals. Let alone with more interesting stats. Gearing alternatives like I mentioned earlier leads to stat overlapping where multiple gearsets have identical stats or one has objectively bad stats (Skill Speed), making it not even an option to consider farming for. Basically, my point is, is that the rabbit hole is a lot deeper than just add more gear because we need more content as a whole to make that gear worth having in the first place. Otherwise, this basically becomes an indirect nerf to Savage gearing. Having 660 gear anywhere outside of Savage would ruin any incentive a casual would need to do that. They already have to wait until the expansion is basically over just to finally upgrade their tomb pieces via Alliance Raid. Which again is still a weekly. If they ever add gear to Critieon, it almost definitely needs to be on a weekly lockout rule. Also, as Tint said, getting 4 people together is a lot easier than 8 people. Do not misunderstand me though, we really do need more gearing options. Even raiders want more options so they can raid on other jobs and not feel locked into a main. But I think the problem is a lot deeper than putting gear into Critieon. Because it impacts everyone as a whole, not just casuals. Not just raiders.

Criterion isnt casual content though

Criterion is right around that level where if you were newer to savage the ilvl bump from potential criterion rewards would help massively in doing savage but at the same time is way too hard for people who genuinely aren’t interested in savage

So gear from criterion would be able to be a third option for raiders, especially in those patches with tome heavy BIS that are just boring