Can 7.0 focus on a storyline without the philosophizing

[Theodric]

Crystal Exarch, the main NPC of ShB, gets shot at the beginning of the last act of the expansion and is whisked away by the antagonist while grievously wounded while at the same time we're suffering from our success of killing the lightwardens and are on the verge of dying and taking the entire world with us. I would count that as stakes.

As well as the twins being held captive by the Garleans, and getting pushed out of our body and needing to rush to Zenos and stop him from killing people we know while inside us. People will have opinions about Ultima Thule, and the Scions in general, but their being brought back was still tied to us being able to defeat Endsinger. No one in my examples died, but that doesn't mean there weren't stakes. "Stakes" doesn't have to always mean someone dying as a consequence of them.

Killing people left and right will do nothing but make the players stop caring about the characters and shouldn't be something that you depend on for your story to create stakes or tension. If you resort to that as an ongoing thing then your writing has already failed. Killing a character should have purpose in the story, it shouldn't be to just make it "dark" and to introduce new characters.


I think you might have a case of rose-tinted nostalgia glasses and a selective memory because the game has been super hokey since ARR and hasn't changed in tone since then. The only thing that's different is that the cutscenes are longer now.

It's interesting how often certain posters swoop in whenever the subject of character death arises in order to try and deceptively re-frame what, exactly, is being discussed.

For clarity, here's some examples of what has actually been stated whenever this has come up in the past:

It's not that people missed it. A lot of people have been weary of the Scions for quite some time, so the moment that it was presented as a possibility that the organisation would be disbanded and the Scions would go their separate ways it caused a sense of relief. It doesn't matter that in the next few sentences it resulted in a 'just kidding' moment - because that doesn't change how a lot of people are still very tired of the characters in question.

All of this has been explained many times across multiple threads already, though. Only for the same posters to come back time and time again with the bad faith insinuation that they weren't paying attention or that the game isn't Game of Thrones (as if that's the only setting in existence to ever kill off a major character).

Most settings these days are so terribly boring and predictable because 'superfans' latch on to specific characters, demand that they be cast in perpetual plot armour and never meaningfully change. Worse yet, these are the same people who will not even tolerate a single bone being thrown to people with different tastes to their own - as seen with the complete meltdowns from some over a character so much as looking at their Warrior of Light the wrong way. Then they wonder why some of us are bored of the Scions...

As has been pointed out over the numerous past occasions where the 'tHiS iS nOt GaMe Of ThRoNeS' line has been spouted, many of us aren't asking for mass death for the sake of mass death and are instead asking for death to occur where and when it makes sense. Cladding the bulk of the cast in extensive plot armour simply sends things in the opposite direction.

I would humbly suggest bookmarking this post if you're able to. It might help refresh your memory next time this same point is raised.

I've never stated anywhere that I'd like every character to be dark, edgy or brooding. I simply enjoy consistency and for maybe one or two characters to go against the grain from time to time. You've brought up 'Game of Thrones' many times, yet that's not even something I have pushed for either. I simply liked that ARR wasn't WoW - at the time - and focused primarily on world building and a healthy combination of consequences for both the protagonists and antagonists alike.

MMO's by their very nature are also meant to appeal to a broad variety of tastes, so on that basis alone there's plenty of room for variety.

A rather common retort trotted out in response to the mere suggestion that maybe, at times, a major character can actually be at risk of something bad happening to them in what is supposed to be a compelling and reasonably dark story beat.

Game of Thrones wasn't the first story in existence to kill off a major character - last I checked, stories such as Romeo and Juliet were written long before any of us posting here were even born. Though we can simply look at the single player titles in the Final Fantasy franchise or various classic JRPG's to see that fairly often major characters were at risk of being eliminated as part of the story.

There's countless other posts where I've commented on the subject in question and outlined my point of view, as well as numerous other posts from similarly minded individuals.

So, once again - nobody is asking for characters to be killed off left and right. Even in this very thread, I stated this:

The game has been notoriously preachy and saccharine in recent years, with the only actual stakes being targeted at throwaway one-scene wonders such as Tesleen and anyone even remotely antagonistic. If the game wants to be philosophical then it can put its money where its mouth is and start killing at least one decently prominent protagonist every few patches. With any luck, that might lead us to have some actual variety in the cast rather than surface level differences. It's one of the few stories where every major character exists to fawn over one's self insert and just echoes the exact same opinions and morals. Anyone who has a different world view - such as the formerly cynical Estinien or the mercenary Zero - soon end up going through Scionification to erode away any interesting differences.

With each patch taking 4.5 months to arrive, two patches would take nine months and three patches would take roughly 13.5 months. That's over a year and not at all what I would consider killing characters 'left and right' as you suggest.

[VelKallor]

You don't need to be a chef to comment or criticise a poor meal at a restaurant, especially if that restaurant is actively bragging about having the 'best meals ever' through its own personal army of influencers.

No one here is ANYONE's "personal influencer".

Actually what we have here, Theodric, is a busy , bustling happy restaurant with loads of happy customers ignoring a tiny band of bitter malcontents standing outside, jum ping up and down telling them how bad the food is and not to eat it because it doesnt suit THEIR tastes or personal likes.

The fact that they DO have a huge load of happy customers says that they have gotten it right across the board, the fact that so many are also repeat customers over an extended period says that they know what they are doing.

Otherwise said customers wouldnt BE coming back...would they?

A lot of people have been weary of the Scions for quite some time,

Oh?

Outside these forums...who is saying that exactly?

[Lauront]

Weird, you don't seem to be doing a very good job of ignoring this supposedly tiny band of bitter malcontents. Truth is, it doesn't matter much to me or others if you and the supposed "majority" enjoy the food. But it's also irrelevant to his point, which is responding to some petulant instance of "WELL YOU DO BETTER THEN!", which is really a ridiculous attempt of a defence of a product or service that is tendered for sale. It doesn't work that way. I don't need to be able to put out a better product, personally, than the likes of Microsoft, McDonalds or, for that matter, Square Enix to be in a position to dislike and criticise what they choose to sell, yes, including to "millions". If a company tried to defend its product that way I'd consider it clownish and not suited for the task it's set itself up for.

*snip*

It's just funny to me. The game tried to set up some "muh suffering" olympics scenario and some people act surprised when the Scions are taken apart for not necessarily being the best or most realistic representations of such, whether it be in terms of what they experienced, or how it's shown to have affected them - I thought Y'shtola was particularly laughable in UT. But the premise is a bad one to begin with. Of course the writers do seem to have cottoned onto the fact that the aforementioned scenario was a bad idea, the messaging of which carried within it awkward implications, and tried to walk back the entire concept via the Omega sidequest by then stating it (=suffering olympics) really doesn't matter so much as factors that vary strongly by individual and don't always engender the same response to despair, largely due to individual perspective. So at least there was some narrative climbdown from it. But it still leaves base EW in a strange position.

[Theodric]

No one here is ANYONE's "personal influencer".

Actually what we have here, Theodric, is a busy , bustling happy restaurant with loads of happy customers ignoring a tiny band of bitter malcontents standing outside telling them how bad the food is and not to eat it because it doesnt suit THEIR tastes or personal likes.

I was referring to the army of influencers present on social media who shoot down any criticism or concerns no matter how valid that criticism may be. It's happened not only with FFXIV but FFXVI as well. During the marketing phase of the latter, video footage showed regular enemies dying very easily and rarely attacking the player. This was pointed out as a concern, only for the play testers to gloat about how it was a dumb and false concern, that it was just 'haters' speaking out and that there was no merit to the criticism. The game launched and it was decent overall, though those concerns proved absolutely true.

It isn't solely 'malcontents' who speaking out. It's perfectly possible for people to enjoy aspects of the game and invest in it whilst still speaking up through a critical lens especially if it's been changed to accommodate a new target audience. One who seems all too keen to try and drive out anyone who dares to ask for more of what they enjoyed seeing in the game.

I also don't get the impression that these 'malcontents' are as angry or as bitter as is insinuated. It's a forum for a video game at the end of the day and the very same venue where the developers themselves and community representatives request feedback to be posted. Whether they actually read it is another matter altogether.

[Striker44]

No one here is ANYONE's "personal influencer".

Actually what we have here, Theodric, is a busy , bustling happy restaurant with loads of happy customers ignoring a tiny band of bitter malcontents standing outside, jum ping up and down telling them how bad the food is and not to eat it because it doesnt suit THEIR tastes or personal likes.

The fact that they DO have a huge load of happy customers says that they have gotten it right across the board, the fact that so many are also repeat customers over an extended period says that they know what they are doing.

Otherwise said customers wouldnt BE coming back...would they?

Spot on. The doubly hilarious part is that the "band of bitter malcontents" still deep-down acknowledges that the restaurant is actually good, because when nobody's watching, they continue going inside and being customers themselves.

[Lauront]

A fitting response to ChatMajorityGPT above is the following: "The internet is a bubble dominated by the loudest, most unrepresentative voices; an infinitesimally small minority of a minority which, deaf to reason and the opinions of others, deludes itself that somehow it is the voice of the majority. An infinite echo chamber of shrieking, witless banality."

I was referring to the army of influencers present on social media who shoot down any criticism or concerns no matter how valid that criticism may be. It's happened not only with FFXIV but FFXVI as well. During the marketing phase of the latter, video footage showed regular enemies dying very easily and rarely attacking the player. This was pointed out as a concern, only for the play testers to gloat about how it was a dumb and false concern, that it was just 'haters' speaking out and that there was no merit to the criticism. The game launched and it was decent overall, though those concerns proved absolutely true.

It isn't solely 'malcontents' who speaking out. It's perfectly possible for people to enjoy aspects of the game and invest in it whilst still speaking up through a critical lens especially if it's been changed to accommodate a new target audience. One who seems all too keen to try and drive out anyone who dares to ask for more of what they enjoyed seeing in the game.

I also don't get the impression that these 'malcontents' are as angry or as bitter as is insinuated. It's a forum for a video game at the end of the day and the very same venue where the developers themselves and community representatives request feedback to be posted. Whether they actually read it is another matter altogether.

At least it's proving much harder to suppress criticism of XVI for the Yoshi fanatics. And I say it as someone who likes the game, mostly. It just fell short in some ways and it's good that criticism is coming through so SE can hopefully learn from what went wrong... but it's not without the attempts of some fanatics trying to pretend it is a perfect product.

[VelKallor]

Spot on. The doubly hilarious part is that the "band of bitter malcontents" still deep-down acknowledges that the restaurant is actually good, because when nobody's watching, they continue going inside and being customers themselves.

It does make one go hmmmm..doesnt it.

"The internet is a bubble dominated by the loudest, most unrepresentative voices; an infinitesimally small minority of a minority which, deaf to reason and the opinions of others, deludes itself that somehow it is the voice of the majority. An infinite echo chamber of shrieking, witless banality."

Sounds very very familiar.....

It just fell short in some ways.

No game is ever perfect, no game is without its flaws. In the end its down to the customer to decide if the game suits their tastes and needs. Those who dont like it vote with their wallets.

As it should be.

[Deo14]

No one here is ANYONE's "personal influencer".

Actually what we have here, Theodric, is a busy , bustling happy restaurant with loads of happy customers ignoring a tiny band of bitter malcontents standing outside, jum ping up and down telling them how bad the food is and not to eat it because it doesnt suit THEIR tastes or personal likes.

The fact that they DO have a huge load of happy customers says that they have gotten it right across the board, the fact that so many are also repeat customers over an extended period says that they know what they are doing.

Otherwise said customers wouldnt BE coming back...would they?



Oh?

Outside these forums...who is saying that exactly?

Those "bitter malcontents" do like the restaurant, they're not some people outside of the restaurant who look through the window and shout that the food is garbage, they're inside, enjoying food like everybody else, but they acknowledge it's shortcomings. CEO of the restaurant (Yoshi-P) is repeatedly asking for feedback (specifically mentioning to post feedback here, on official forums), so the restaurant can improve and keep growing. So people do that, but some blinded, loyal fans who kept eating same meal for the past 10 years try to shut down their legitimate concerns.

[Lauront]

It does make one go hmmmm..doesnt it.



Sounds very very familiar.....

It really does, doesn't it? Especially the catboy poster who keeps bleating about "majorities" all the time.

Those "bitter malcontents" do like the restaurant, they're not some people outside of the restaurant who look through the window and shout that the food is garbage, they're inside, enjoying food like everybody else, but they acknowledge it's shortcomings. CEO of the restaurant (Yoshi-P) is repeatedly asking for feedback (specifically mentioning to post feedback here, on official forums), so the restaurant can improve and keep growing. So people do that, but some blinded, loyal fans who kept eating same meal for the past 10 years try to shut down their legitimate concerns.

Spot on. And these same "fans" also pretend to be the voice of the "majority".

[VelKallor]

. CEO of the restaurant (Yoshi-P) is repeatedly asking for feedback (specifically mentioning to post feedback here, on official forums),

When said feedback is supposedly provided, one would be forgiven if said CEO rolls their eyes................when certain more bitter malcontents start demanding the staff be fired