Can 7.0 focus on a storyline without the philosophizing

[AwesomeJr44]

There was no fake-out deaths as they were never dead.

Does establishing this really change anything related to this discussion outside of semantics?

Besides, if it's not a fake-out death, then it's somehow even worse. The scions have so much plot armor that they can't even suffer a fake death in an expansion about overcoming despair.

On the contrary, a lot of people with criticism towards the story do want action and meaningful consequences in the narrative.

Yes. I would indeed prefer meaningful consequences over the mega safe nonsense we get currently where every main character has plot armor thicker than my future.

The game has been notoriously preachy and saccharine in recent years, with the only actual stakes being targeted at throwaway one-scene wonders such as Tesleen and anyone even remotely antagonistic.

Ironically, the message being preached is antithetical to the story that's being shown. You can't overcome despair if you don't experience actual despair.

Quoting your sig for a second to address point number 1: All of the threads I have seen you start are always a criticism. After awhile, one start to think everything you bring up is negative towards the game. Therefore, the conclusion people will make is:
1) You hate the game and therefor you should stop giving money to a company that you dislike their product that they will not be changing their views
or
2) You are just another bad troll on the forums.

I'm leaning towards number 2 since you think someone calling you out for nothing but negative postings is "bad-faith" when we clearly have plenty of evidence to back up the fact that it seems you hate the game.

People are not required to post positive threads/posts for their criticism to be valid. If people are making that conclusion, then they clearly didn't think their reasoning through.

[VelKallor]

You can't overcome despair if you don't experience actual despair.

Then what do you call Alphinauids mental state after the collapse of the Crystal Braves? Hiding in Coerthas after being accused of regicide? What do you call Estinens grief at losing his entire family in the Dragon War? Thancreds eternal grief and self hate after failing Minfilia? Urianger's despair at the death of his dearest childhood friend? Lyse's grief over Papalymo's sacrifice?

Im starting to think you skip all the cutscenes and story.

[TheDecay]

Then what do you call Alphinauids mental state after the collapse of the Crystal Braves? Hiding in Coerthas after being accused of regicide? What do you call Estinens grief at losing his entire family in the Dragon War? Thancreds eternal grief and self hate after failing Minfilia? Urianger's despair at the death of his dearest childhood friend? Lyse's grief over Papalymo's sacrifice?

Im starting to think you skip all the cutscenes and story.

Those all took place more than six years ago, which is the point of the topic.

[VelKallor]

Those all took place more than six years ago, which is the point of the topic.

If you even start to think that time changes, eliminates or erases events like this, you are far beyond foolish. Events like this stay with you forever. They get easier to bear as times goes on, yes, but they never go away.

A man I looked after still felt the despair and grief at the loss of his squadmates in WW1, to the day he died, it never left his heart.

You do not forget, Titanmen.

Not then, not now.

Not ever.

[IkaraGreydancer]

We really don't need another lecture on the meaning of life or existentialism. We don't need to watch yet another monologue on how life is worth living and we can still have purpose even if we fail and suffer, or how humans have free will and we need to fight for our purpose and choose our purpose even if we might fail, defying our fate and the purpose others impose on us (basically existentialism).

It's quite enough, CBU3. Please find some new material. Please write a story with nuanced and interesting character development perhaps, that isn't just traveling with 7 people who just alternate between "you are my friend and I appreciate you" or "don't die on me".

EW had barely any character development, and now FF16 doesn't have it either (other than maybe Joshua). It's like character arcs no longer exist in CBU3 games, giving way to the philosophy and life lessons that CBU3 wants you to remember. Which is fine once or twice but it is seriously getting tiring and tedious when it's the twentieth time the same moral of the story gets repeated again and again.

Isn't the whole of EW nuance? Hell throw ShB in there too. Like that's one of the major themes around this expac. Even Golbez revolves around this as it's clear he's a man suffering and not truly evil.

Also the Scions have been through thier arcs so I don't expect much development in that wave. They're in a stage where they have goals to pursue and accomplish now. Side note it's kinda funny when folks talk about Scion plot armor like our own isn't some of the most strong in the mmo space.

I don't remember ARR,HW, or SB touching on the meaning of life or nihilism...like at all. So to speak like XIV has been on this wave for a long time is just off. Every FF game has philosophy so if thats something you're tired of maybe another Franchise is better suited.

[AwesomeJr44]

Then what do you call Alphinauids mental state after the collapse of the Crystal Braves? Hiding in Coerthas after being accused of regicide? What do you call Estinens grief at losing his entire family in the Dragon War? Thancreds eternal grief and self hate after failing Minfilia? Urianger's despair at the death of his dearest childhood friend? Lyse's grief over Papalymo's sacrifice?

None of these happened during Endwalker. These all happened before the scions were given the plot armor they have now.

If you even start to think that time changes, eliminates or erases events like this, you are far beyond foolish. Events like this stay with you forever. They get easier to bear as times goes on, yes, but they never go away.

Cool. But referencing story beats from several years ago isn't a good way to show your characters overcoming despair, it just shows that you have to rely on memberberries.

And? These things still effect these people and plays into their decision making. Uri had JUST gotten closure in regards to Moen in EW and that happened in ARR before they're so called "plot armor" kicked in.

"The Endwalker scions have infinitely thick plot armor thus Endwalker's message is hollow"
"But what about this event from 6 years ago?"
"That didn't happen in Endwalker."
"And?"

Memberberries.

[IkaraGreydancer]

None of these happened during Endwalker. These all happened before the scions were given the plot armor they have now.

And? These things still effect these people and plays into their decision making to this day. Uri had JUST gotten closure in regards to Moen in EW and that happened in ARR before they're so called "plot armor" kicked in.

[MikkoAkure]

The game has been notoriously preachy and saccharine in recent years, with the only actual stakes being targeted at throwaway one-scene wonders such as Tesleen and anyone even remotely antagonistic. If the game wants to be philosophical then it can put its money where its mouth is and start killing at least one decently prominent protagonist every few patches.

Crystal Exarch, the main NPC of ShB, gets shot at the beginning of the last act of the expansion and is whisked away by the antagonist while grievously wounded while at the same time we're suffering from our success of killing the lightwardens and are on the verge of dying and taking the entire world with us. I would count that as stakes.

As well as the twins being held captive by the Garleans, and getting pushed out of our body and needing to rush to Zenos and stop him from killing people we know while inside us. People will have opinions about Ultima Thule, and the Scions in general, but their being brought back was still tied to us being able to defeat Endsinger. No one in my examples died, but that doesn't mean there weren't stakes. "Stakes" doesn't have to always mean someone dying as a consequence of them.

Killing people left and right will do nothing but make the players stop caring about the characters and shouldn't be something that you depend on for your story to create stakes or tension. If you resort to that as an ongoing thing then your writing has already failed. Killing a character should have purpose in the story, it shouldn't be to just make it "dark" and to introduce new characters.


I think you might have a case of rose-tinted nostalgia glasses and a selective memory because the game has been super hokey since ARR and hasn't changed in tone since then. The only thing that's different is that the cutscenes are longer now.

[Kazemon15]

It's funny that people go "the despair the scions had doesn't count cuz it was 6 years ago real time [not even story time]" yet these same people go boo hoo poor ascians and Emet-Selch for feeling the loss of his home and loved ones, he had despair that happened 13,000 years ago story time and they suffered so much. But the scions? Nah they need to suffer MORE to get that point across. The stuff they suffered already? They should get over it... it was sooo long ago after all [only a year storywise]. Hypocritical much?

[Reap00]

We really don't need another lecture on the meaning of life or existentialism. We don't need to watch yet another monologue on how life is worth living and we can still have purpose even if we fail and suffer, or how humans have free will and we need to fight for our purpose and choose our purpose even if we might fail, defying our fate and the purpose others impose on us (basically existentialism).

It's quite enough, CBU3. Please find some new material. Please write a story with nuanced and interesting character development perhaps, that isn't just traveling with 7 people who just alternate between "you are my friend and I appreciate you" or "don't die on me".

EW had barely any character development, and now FF16 doesn't have it either (other than maybe Joshua). It's like character arcs no longer exist in CBU3 games, giving way to the philosophy and life lessons that CBU3 wants you to remember. Which is fine once or twice but it is seriously getting tiring and tedious when it's the twentieth time the same moral of the story gets repeated again and again.

If you don't like it don't play it. If you want to change it put together your own game. Complaining/trolling incessantly on a forum won't change anything.