FFXVI has now officially proven to have taken over Yoshi's time

[IkaraGreydancer]

Why did you feel the need to attack the signature? Is it because you feel uncomfortable?

As for the rest of your post: NO ONE has any data on how job changes affected the game's popularity. In fact, this is data not even SE can collect, because the job changes happen simultaneously along with multiple other confounders (such as better storyline) so that a robust statistical causal analysis is basically impossible to conduct. This is why this argument is bad-faith: because no one can actually use data to prove anything here. Not even Square Enix. They have no control group or any causal instrument to tease out the effect.

So as any reasonable and sane person would do next, I inferred the most likely scenario based on what we can actually observe and made educated deductions. First, new players are most likely to try out a game based on advertisements and word of mouth. Second, SE has not talked about the job changes at all in their ads. Third, most people's discussion of FF14 outside of FF14 communities center on factors other than job design when they talk about why they like the game, including: the story, the positive community, the impression that Yoshi P cares more about the players than other devs... From this it's rather straightforward to conclude that job changes are very unlikely to have changed a potential player's decision on whether or not to try this game out and purchase it. Those job changes are announced only within the community, through live letters and patch notes. New players largely do not decide to start playing a game because of a 3-hour live letter discussing things they know nothing about.

Then of course more bad faith arguments followed but I don't have the time to explain why for every point. It's a variant of gish galloping after all. Instead of clearly communicating one single idea or argument, gish gallopers make many, all of which takes time to correct.

Oh, and cute "gotcha" attempts like "why are you paying for the sub" are basically variants of point number 1 in my signature. Asking why someone is still subbing when they have criticisms is practically identical from telling someone to unsub. The only difference is that one is passive aggressive. It's highly confusing why you would agree that that is a bad faith argument then write a passive aggressive variant of it.

Writing things you don't agree with off as bad faith...is literally bad faith. Like come on you have to realize this...

I addressed the signature because it has holes. Also attacking? Pretty charged language. Hell I even agreed with the first point and even stated I'd agree with the last if there was another part to it so to assume it makes me uncomfortable is...weird.

Lastly it's not a "gotcha". I genuinely do wonder why any one would pay for a game they don't think does anything right as you've claimed. It makes no sense and is irrational. I don't ask that for folks with simple criticism. I ask that to folks who seemingly dislike every or most aspects of the game. It's not passive aggressive by any means. Would you say the same if I swap the topic being a game to say...a restaurant? Is it crazy to ask someone why they still go eat there despite saying all the food is crap? It's literally no different with this...Using "bad faith" as a shield to stave off anyone who doesn't agree or speak how you want them to gets us nowhere. When will yall learn this?

[TheDecay]

Lastly it's not a "gotcha". I genuinely do wonder why any one would pay for a game they don't think does anything right as you've claimed. It makes no sense and is irrational. I don't ask that for folks with simple criticism. I ask that to folks who seemingly dislike every or most aspects of the game. It's not passive aggressive by any means. Would you say the same if I swap the topic being a game to say...a restaurant? Is it crazy to ask someone why they still go eat there despite saying all the food is crap? It's literally no different with this...Using "bad faith" as a shield to stave off anyone who doesn't agree or speak how you want them to gets us nowhere. When will yall learn this?

Yes, it absolutely is a "gotcha". It has zero relevance to the topic and zero relevance to the discussion. You are asking what someone's personal interests and reason for playing the game are. That has nothing to do with the topic, and nothing to do with the discussion. It is derailment-lite: an attempt to shift the discussion away from game discussion to a discussion about individual players and their purchasing decisions. It makes it easier to dismiss arguments when you try to portray them as lacking monetary sense or making bad purchase decisions. In essence, you are very much engaging in passive aggressive hostility by shifting the blame from the game to the players. Your "curiosity" is not legitimate and you are encouraged to stick to game discussion. FYI: players can dislike a lot of the game but enjoy one small part of it, such as raiding. However, unlike certain people on the forums, most players do not feel the need to make a post praising the game for every criticism they make.

It also has not got past me that you have intentionally ignored the main chunk of my post (which took up nearly 70% of it in word count) in an attempt to "gotcha" me by focusing on points that you see as easier to argue against.

[IkaraGreydancer]

Yes, it absolutely is a "gotcha". It has zero relevance to the topic and zero relevance to the discussion. You are asking what someone's personal interests and reason for playing the game are. That has nothing to do with the topic, and nothing to do with the discussion. It is derailment-lite: an attempt to shift the discussion away from game discussion to a discussion about individual players and their purchasing decisions. It makes it easier to dismiss arguments when you try to portray them as lacking monetary sense or making bad purchase decisions. In essence, you are very much engaging in passive aggressive hostility by shifting the blame from the game to the players. Your "curiosity" is not legitimate and you are encouraged to stick to game discussion. FYI: players can dislike a lot of the game but enjoy one small part of it, such as raiding. However, unlike certain people on the forums, most players do not feel the need to make a post praising the game for every criticism they make.

It also has not got past me that you have intentionally ignored the main chunk of my post (which took up nearly 70% of it in word count) in an attempt to "gotcha" me by focusing on points that you see as easier to argue against.

There's little reason to address your "main point" as it goes nowhere due to a lack of data. Simple as that there.

It's not a derailing at all nor does it dismiss anything. If anything it a knowledges it. If we go by what you say and the game does nothing right (pure acknowledgement n seeing it from your view) the next question is why are you still paying? That's not being passive aggressive...what is it with you people n using buzzwords (incorrectly mind you) for every damn thing? Don't yall crap on the Twitter side of this community for doing this? Where is this blame shift? Hell where did blame itself even come from? That concept hasn't even been used or brought up til you made it up and added to this (odd cause I remember you telling someone else they were being irrational n making things up basically earlier). Next question...Where's the hostility? I asked a simple question acknowledging n going by your view and that's...hostile now? Isn't your camp the same folks talking about XIV fans being to soft and immature? Like legit I'm confused...

Your points arent solid like you think they are dude. Your hivemind will think they are as per usual as someone is either always right or always wrong here. But I can tell talking with you is only further devolving to the same old nonsensical bs so I say we just agree to disagree n call it.

[TheDecay]

There's little reason to address your "main point" as it goes nowhere due to a lack of data. Simple as that there.

No, actually it isn't as simple as that. I have explained what reasonable people do when data is not available easily. In the real world, scientists, engineers, and policymakers often have to make inferences and deductions when data is scarce. You do not seem to understand that educated claims and arguments CAN still be made even with minimal data. Asking for "data" is a cop-out to pretend that one can make absolutely no claims about the situation to dismiss any and all argument made under uncertainty. Pure mathematics is a discipline that uses precisely zero data. There is such a thing known as logical deductions.

It's not a derailing at all nor does it dismiss anything. If anything it a knowledges it. If we go by what you say and the game does nothing right (pure acknowledgement n seeing it from your view) the next question is why are you still paying? That's not being passive aggressive...what is it with you people n using buzzwords (incorrectly mind you) for every damn thing? Don't yall crap on the Twitter side of this community for doing this? Where is this blame shift? Hell where did blame itself even come from? That concept hasn't even been used or brought up til you made it up and added to this (odd cause I remember you telling someone else they were being irrational n making things up basically earlier). Next question...Where's the hostility? I asked a simple question acknowledging n going by your view and that's...hostile now? Isn't your camp the same folks talking about XIV fans being to soft and immature? Like legit I'm confused...

Please stop making bad-faith posts like these. I do not use Twitter. I did not say the game does nothing right. I do not belong to any "camp". You are constructing a strawman.

Your points arent solid like you think they are dude. Your hivemind will think they are as per usual as someone is either always right or always wrong here. But I can tell talking with you is only further devolving to the same old nonsensical bs so I say we just agree to disagree n call it.

It's only devolving because you are polluting the discourse by using bad-faith argumentative tactics, such as:
- Derailment: by going into a non-sequitur of interrogating why I pay my sub
- Strawmanning: by claiming that I have written opinions that I have never written
- Insults: by calling my posts "nonsensical bs" or using words like "hivemind"
- Concern trolling: by pretending that you are "confused" or "curious" and seeking to attempt to understand my arguments when you, in the very next sentence, insult me.

I strongly advise you to discuss the game in good faith lest you break more forum rules going forward, and reflect on your own method of writing and argumentation and why it poisons the discourse on the forums and creates a negative environment for all, especially towards players who are merely criticizing the game.

[Nav_Fae]

Please stop making bad-faith posts like these.

According to your join date, you haven't been using these forums for even a full month. (With this specific character if we are to believe you don't visit with others). And all you have done in that entire month is call half the forums bad faith forum users for expressing their feelings and opinion. Yet you're the "new" person around here. How are we supposed to believe that you aren't the bad faith forum poster when a fraction of your post throws that trigger buzz word around and you even have it mentioned in your signature. Like for someone who supposedly just started using the forums this month, you seemed to have quickly taken a vendetta against anyone who disagrees with you as a bad faith forum poster. Like your signature says "Ask for hard evidence when they provide none of their own" which you fail to do quite often and only express your opinions that everything CBU3 does is bad and awful. My point is, you are welcomed on these forums as much as anyone else is. But you keep calling people out as bad faith forum posters when that's the only you have done since you have joined is down talk the game and anyone within it. There was a positive thread made asking for crossover items from FF16 and you are in there telling people they shouldn't want a crossover until SE fixes both games. So, is it bad faith to want crossover items because you aren't having fun?