Linear, linear, linear

[caffe_macchiato]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

And here comes the self-flagellation. Never blame the multi-billion dollar corporation for making dismal games. Always blame the player, for they're the ones making the games, right?



I was a tank main during ARR and had to drag all of y'all through those non-linear dungeons. Yes, we always took the "proper" path. But with more nuance, mechanics, enemy variety, challenges, and puzzles(!) in each dungeon, everything felt more fun. It was actually fun doing your daily roulettes. Nowadays it's a chore.

No wonder people have given up on gameplay and instead use this game as a Second Life clone. There's nothing else to do here.

P.S. It's repulsive that the attitude of the FFXIV community is to blame the common man for what a wealthy corporation is doing. Brands have hypnotized the people.

[Striker44]

And here comes the self-flagellation. Never blame the multi-billion dollar corporation for making dismal games. Always blame the player, for they're the ones making the games, right?

Seriously, this is where the non-stop negativity just makes certain people's opinions not worth developers listening to. The point I made is straight-up reality. Apparently your approach is never take any blame for anything, always blame others (even when you're responsible)...

[OdinelStarrei]

Seriously, this is where the non-stop negativity just makes certain people's opinions not worth developers listening to. The point I made is straight-up reality. Apparently your approach is never take any blame for anything, always blame others (even when you're responsible)...

I am not responsible!

I didn't do anything except disagree with design/dungeon/job decisions and support/compliment things I liked! I've always said that fights should not be nerfed, that dungeons should not be in this straight line, or at least have the illusion of being more than just a straight hallway. I didn't insist, nor did I force SE to do dumb things that blow up in their faces later on, like Variants, which they STILL fumbled.

What is your endgame here? Are players who really want additional complexity simultaneously a minority that doesn't matter ergo shouldn't be listened to by developers AND the speed runner people responsible for killing more unique dungeons because Square Enix HAD to acquiesce to popular trends? "The enemy is too weak to acknowledge, but also so strong we need to allocate resources to resist them." We have Trusts now in almost all 4-man dungeon content going forward, players who want to explore HAVE that option without any judgement, and even now, with content like Deep Dungeons, full clears/exploration for silvers is far from uncommon. Yet the linearity, and simplicity continues. Why are WE getting blamed for Square Enix's choices, the ones they have barely ever added any transparency on? I don't appreciate being seen as a scapegoat! "Oh no, the players did what players do in every popular game ever made, no way we could have ever seen this coming, and designed for it accordingly."

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[Striker44]

I am not responsible!

I didn't do anything except disagree with design/dungeon/job decisions and support/compliment things I liked! I've always said that fights should not be nerfed, that dungeons should not be in this straight line, or at least have the illusion of being more than just a straight hallway. I didn't insist, nor did I force SE to do dumb things that blow up in their faces later on, like Variants, which they STILL fumbled.

Umm...I wasn't referring to you. Notice how the post you quoted has me talking about "your approach" - meaning the person who I was directly quoting and responding to.

To your larger point, it's not a matter of simply "popular" trends, but an immense majority. Think about how many ARR dungeons back in the pre-revamp time actually saw parties you were in do anything but the most effective linear path (and if a group actually did anything off the direct path, were you the tank prompting it). It's not that a simple "majority" did something; it's that practically everyone did. It's just simple reality that allocating time and resources to something that very few people will see just isn't worth it from a production standpoint.

Remember, SE has engagement metrics that we don't have. If they continue designing and expanding on things like Variant Dungeons, it's because they didn't fumble them, and people by and large are enjoying and playing them. So overall, yes, if you have what amounts to a very niche take on a major part of a game, it's unfortunate but reality that you're likely going to be left disappointed. That's not a question of what "should" be, but just a mature realization of what "is."

[TheDecay]

I was a tank main during ARR and had to drag all of y'all through those non-linear dungeons. Yes, we always took the "proper" path. But with more nuance, mechanics, enemy variety, challenges, and puzzles(!) in each dungeon, everything felt more fun. It was actually fun doing your daily roulettes. Nowadays it's a chore.

Wanderer's Palace is a prime example of good non-linear dungeon design for FF14. In the room where multiple large Tonberries are chasing you, you could take multiple paths to get to your destination. And at the same time you want to avoid those large Tonberries. It meant that depending on your team's DPS and ability, there could be an organically different route to take each time (such as needing to double back and hide for a while if your team is really slow). Of course, this can only be experienced back in ARR and HW when these actually posed any threat whatsoever. Doing Wanderer's Palace now would not give people a good idea of what it was like back in the day, though I expect the same WoWfugee contrarians to pipe up and disagree despite never having done these dungeons when they were relevant, because they did it in a roulette in 2023 and disregarded all the mechanics and survived once.

[Mikey_R]

Wanderer's Palace is a prime example of good non-linear dungeon design for FF14. In the room where multiple large Tonberries are chasing you, you could take multiple paths to get to your destination.

No you could not. The Tonberries with the oil are in specific places and the levers you need the oil for are also in set places, this creates an optimal path through the area.

Go in, hit the first one right infront of you, go right, up the slope, left into the middle room, pull the mobs through and to the right (hope someone remembers to pull the lever in the middle). The big Tonberry doesn't follow you in this area, as long as people don't stand on the main path. You can choose to pull the Tonberries from below as well, Provoke reaches after all. From there, you go down the left staircase, go right, flip the switch, tank runs up and aggros everything, someone flips the switch at the end in the corner, everyone runs back and hope people know about locking out mobs from the boss room so you don't have to deal with them.

That was the strat from the first months of the game's release. Trust me, I done it plenty of times as a tank, 10 times a week to cap tomes believe it or not as this was before roulettes and the cap was still 300.

That room alone proves that people will optimise something completely, that was done within a month. It is a complete illusion of choice.

Other cases are Toto Rak. There is technically split paths, in that dungeon, however, there is one optimal route through, which everyone does. Sunkern Temple? You used to solve the puzzle, but then the community decided that it wasn't worth solving, despite the puzzle being the same every time. 2 mob packs to solve the puzzle or, just 1 if you fail which also doesn't require you to deviate from the direct route.

However, this all comes back to what do people actually want in an optional area in a dungeon to make it worth it for everyone in the group? In a random party, not everyone is necessarily going to want to go to the side path to get an item that potentially has a large Gil selling potential (which wouldn't hold it's value), unique minion/mount? Doesn't matter if someone already has it, which then turns it into a Gil item, assuming it isn't a unique item. Some sort of gear reward? Not everyone is going to care and they aren't going to make them equal to raid or tome gear. Even tomes isn't going to necessarily be something everyone wants. Point being, there is no universal reward that will entice everyone into that area, every time.

A potential solution, if you really want split routes, is to give the dungeon split routes, but the game forces you one way or another randomly. This could cause different bosses, or the same boss with different mechanics. Since dungeons now have a narrative inside them, the last boss has to be the same, but again, you can change things dependant on the route you had to take. Is the dungeon still linear? Yes, but at least it isn't the same every time. Not that I personally really care.