Linear, linear, linear

[Aword3213]

Is it a good action game? No it isn't as deep as Dark Souls or GoW, there's barely any way for you to customize your build like in Souls

Souls isn’t a good example here because the difference between strength, dexterity and balance build is the stat. The majority of their gameplay can be summarized as R1(light attack), R1, Dodge.

[Striker44]

hmm, you people always seem to forget that ff14 literally copied from wow

FFXIV took some very specific elements from WoW, namely things like having a "badge" system for purchasing gear (tomestones) rather than it being purely RNG. Most other aspects of FFXIV are very distinct from WoW.

[Shinkuno]

FFXIV took some very specific elements from WoW, namely things like having a "badge" system for purchasing gear (tomestones) rather than it being purely RNG. Most other aspects of FFXIV are very distinct from WoW.

You are here since 2022, what do you know how FFXIV used to be in its early days when the dev teams were told to copy WoW?

[Payadopa]

And what did the player base decide about those dungeons? Since the rewards and bosses would be the same regardless of what order you did them in, the player base decided that the 3214 order was the most efficient route so every group would automatically go 3214. The occasional random player who wanted to go 1324 would get left for dead at best if they didn't rejoin the rest of the group or kicked out of the group at worst.

At that point, the dungeon might as well be linear when groups are going to follow the same route every time regardless. There's nothing gained (or lost) by going a different route outside of an extra minute of time.

Variant has a nice concept that's the start to making multi-path dungeons interesting but there's still a lot of room for improvement. Imagine alternate paths that lead to altars that grant a group buffs, with those buffs granting different benefits to the group at the same time they subtly alter boss mechanics (as we see in the current Variant based on route choice or interaction with various objects). Groups would could choose their route depending on which buff would be most beneficial to the group comp's strengths and weaknesses since the Variant actions make the usual T-H-D-D comp unnecessary. Or perhaps route choice would change what the boss loot drops are. Defeating optional bosses could make the final boss harder with better rewards or weaker with lesser rewards.

There's no point in making multi-path dungeons if the choice of route doesn't have the potential to impact the overall experience in some meaningful way.

So the logic is because it'll get eventually boring don't try to change that and make it boring from the beginning.

Why have interesting abilities when someone will do the math and figure out the exact best rotation. Why figure out a boss fight yourself when you can watch a YT video.

The answer is always the same. Because some people enjoy it and play for fun.

[Shinkuno]

So the logic is because it'll get eventually boring don't try to change that and make it boring from the beginning.

Why have interesting abilities when someone will do the math and figure out the exact best rotation. Why figure out a boss fight yourself when you can watch a YT video.

The answer is always the same. Because some people enjoy it and play for fun.

The people that argue "but someone will figure out the best path!" are strangely often the ones pressing random buttons instead of the objectively mathed out best rotation *think emoji* They can freestyle their own "rotation" but somehow a multiple path dungeon is bad

[Sufjann]

It's linear by design, not incompetence.

And linear games aren't worse, just different. If you want a world full of choices and paths, don't play Final Fantasy. There are other games you can play like TOTK.

[Irenia]

Is it a good story-based game? I think this is the only thing FF16 is good at, sadly. So why is it a video game and not a movie?

I'm not really going to defend FF16 here (from what I've seen it's not a game I'm in a hurry to play), but this sentiment of "why is it not a movie?" pisses me off. Games are more that the sun of the parts, and I've enjoyed otherwise mediocre systems because of the relationship with the story and game experience as a whole.

The story game is not a movie because it is best experienced as a game.

[R041]

Who in this thread is actually playing XVI? It sounds like a lot of people aren't, and you're kinda just talking to talk. Because yeah it's linear. But it's more like old FF linear, not XIV linear.

Some of the 'dungeons' are mostly just DMC linear, not really designed like XIV linearity. Most dungeons have small branches, and some secrets. So it definitely doesn't feel like I'm just auto-running forward like XIV. Mob placement isn't 2 pulls > boss > 2 pulls > boss.. It's more chaotic than that, but it DOES have DMC style 'rooms' and corridors. It's not all string to circle.

If you also open the Location Map, you'll see everything is connected, so it kinda feels like Dark Souls in that way (not Elden Ring).






ALSO - For anyone looking at the main world map and thinking it's all 'Teleport here for small zone' It's also not that. It's more like a bunch of very large areas with multiple Aetherytes. Every teleport option you have on the map goes to an Aetheryte in open world basically. You can see in the second pic it has 3 Aetherytes just in that area. And those are large exploration areas. There's so much misinformation. lol

Anyway - I have my XVI criticisms, but I'm not gonna pretend what it is or isn't.

[Jojoya]

So the logic is because it'll get eventually boring don't try to change that and make it boring from the beginning.

Why have interesting abilities when someone will do the math and figure out the exact best rotation. Why figure out a boss fight yourself when you can watch a YT video.

The answer is always the same. Because some people enjoy it and play for fun.

Oh, I would love to have some serious choices when it comes to picking what abilities my character has available. Some of the best fun I had in WoW was playing my dorky bank alt mage in the open world with a really crazy set of talents back in Wrath. Couldn't deviate from the acceptable talent builds for my raiding characters but since my bank alt didn't raid and rarely did normal dungeons, I could get away with anything I wanted.

But I know why choice gets sacrificed - most players demand balance and the more variables involved, the harder it is to achieve that balance. The devs already have to try to find a balance for 19 jobs that the player base will consider acceptable. Now imagine if each of those 19 jobs had a dozen different builds available that also required balancing.

It would be great if SE simply told players "We've devoted a decade of job design to those of you who want jobs to be balanced. Now we're going to devote the next decade to those who want job customization and unique actions." I've been around MMOs long enough to know I'd rather have someone who knows what they're doing with their underperforming job in my party than someone who playing the current FotM but can barely get a base combo done and constantly has to be scraped off the floor. I'm a lot more likely to get the clear with the former.

The interests of players like you and me unfortunately get overshadowed by the vocal optimization crowd that will only choose their party comp based on numbers generated by players they'll never play with instead of including/excluding players based on their personal merit. I bet those who work on job design would likewise love the chance to incorporate some original ideas into jobs instead of having to worry about getting the job balanced compared to the others.

There are always the single player RPGs for creating fun builds. No need to worry about balance because aren't competing against others for a raid spot. If someone manages to come up with a ridiculously OP build, they don't have to worry about it getting nerfed into the ground.

The people that argue "but someone will figure out the best path!" are strangely often the ones pressing random buttons instead of the objectively mathed out best rotation *think emoji* They can freestyle their own "rotation" but somehow a multiple path dungeon is bad

Again, dungeons end up linear because of players. Players are the ones who want to get in and out of dungeons as fast as possible. Multiple paths are meaningless if the player base decides on a most efficient route and sticks to using it every time. There's no point in creating multiple paths if players aren't going to deviate from the optimal route. It's just a waste of developer time that could be spent on other projects.

Developers are usually more than happy to get the opportunity to flex their creative skills. It's the budget allocation given to a project that holds those opportunities in check.

Variant was a nice step toward creating meaningful multiple path dungeons but they still need a lot of work before they'll get there.

[Shougun]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

For MMO / dungeons I'm not entirely surprised, though I feel there might be some ideas that could fly with the culture (just probably not in a standard concept).

However, given a single player RPG.... I mean.. clearly No? There are a lot of non-linear dungeons in absolutely famous, profitable, games. There is also linearly non-linear designs, which I just made up the wording, but take those dungeons where they have puzzles and wrap arounds that you're mostly supposed to go through by a particular path, with some branching, and as you explore via metroid-like/castlevania-like unlocks the place gets larger and fuller while also unlocking QoL. Souls, GoW, and even sometimes Bethesda games have this. I would be disappointed if someone tries to argue a hub in a zone in FFXVI counts as that since you start at the hub and branch out in one direction, just cause that hub ends up with multiple branches imo doesn't compare to a game that is wrapping around itself like a key ladder kicked down in a Souls game (I think traversing through the space vs using it like a train station might be one of the reasons why it doesn't, imo, apply).

Because it's a negative comment I have to remind that I do like FFXVI, but if someone was like 'quickly pick something you think they need to do better next time' I would definitely say level design is one of them, at least in gameplay regions. Not visually, but mechanically. The level design is just simple, it's not cleverly simple, or open and free, it's constricted and simple. Hilariously, in non-combat regions they have many layered multiple pathed areas, many town / airship spaces are very non-linear (and took me a little bit to explore, like Lostwing lol).

I wouldn't say simply having loop backs or useless multi-paths makes it exciting, as that might be a take away and that's not the point, but I would personally lean to either open and freeing (doesn't mean purely open world but, not feeling like I'm on strict rails) or cleverly linear (like GoW). Currently it's neither freeing (loads of invisible walls) nor feels very clever, that sounds like an insult and is not intended as one (opposite of clever might sound like a pejorative, I am NOT saying that but probably am saying 'simple / straight forward' feeling).

There are a lot of games with good level design but some things that stick out to me are some of the Souls games (in general, but like Sens fortress maybe), GoW (new ones), Dishonoured (especially that mansion, may look at Hitmans or Deus Ex for multi-approach as well), Prey, Metroid and Castlevanyia (but keep in mind it's 2d... doesn't translate as smoothly), perhaps Portal for puzzles that unfold themselves yet don't make you feel handheld, etc. Lots of good examples but those ones popped into my mind at first.

Who in this thread is actually playing XVI? It sounds like a lot of people aren't, and you're kinda just talking to talk. Because yeah it's linear. But it's more like old FF linear, not XIV linear.

Some of the 'dungeons' are mostly just DMC linear, not really designed like XIV linearity. Most dungeons have small branches, and some secrets. So it definitely doesn't feel like I'm just auto-running forward like XIV. Mob placement isn't 2 pulls > boss > 2 pulls > boss.. It's more chaotic than that, but it DOES have DMC style 'rooms' and corridors. It's not all string to circle.

If you also open the Location Map, you'll see everything is connected, so it kinda feels like Dark Souls in that way (not Elden Ring).






ALSO - For anyone looking at the main world map and thinking it's all 'Teleport here for small zone' It's also not that. It's more like a bunch of very large areas with multiple Aetherytes. Every teleport option you have on the map goes to an Aetheryte in open world basically. You can see in the second pic it has 3 Aetherytes just in that area. And those are large exploration areas. There's so much misinformation. lol

Anyway - I have my XVI criticisms, but I'm not gonna pretend what it is or isn't.

I usually play in a assuming design sweeping pattern by that I mean I assume the developer's thoughts and work through the space in an attempted efficiency (you can see the design decisions that guide players, lights, shapes, halls, etc, sometimes literally if a marker system is in place, and choose to go the other direction and often be rewarded), and imo the level design feels really simple and not Dark Souls in comparable level design tier.

Opinions are like chocobo butts though and we all have one so we can agree to disagree and that be fine, but my sweeping pattern for this game felt like I was using really simple mental algorithm and no 'exploration'. Vs some of the other games I listed, or Dark Souls as you referenced.

As posted above though I would caution simply responding to the feedback with 'make it more convoluted', or that it has visual issues.