Linear, linear, linear

[Shougun]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

For MMO / dungeons I'm not entirely surprised, though I feel there might be some ideas that could fly with the culture (just probably not in a standard concept).

However, given a single player RPG.... I mean.. clearly No? There are a lot of non-linear dungeons in absolutely famous, profitable, games. There is also linearly non-linear designs, which I just made up the wording, but take those dungeons where they have puzzles and wrap arounds that you're mostly supposed to go through by a particular path, with some branching, and as you explore via metroid-like/castlevania-like unlocks the place gets larger and fuller while also unlocking QoL. Souls, GoW, and even sometimes Bethesda games have this. I would be disappointed if someone tries to argue a hub in a zone in FFXVI counts as that since you start at the hub and branch out in one direction, just cause that hub ends up with multiple branches imo doesn't compare to a game that is wrapping around itself like a key ladder kicked down in a Souls game (I think traversing through the space vs using it like a train station might be one of the reasons why it doesn't, imo, apply).

Because it's a negative comment I have to remind that I do like FFXVI, but if someone was like 'quickly pick something you think they need to do better next time' I would definitely say level design is one of them, at least in gameplay regions. Not visually, but mechanically. The level design is just simple, it's not cleverly simple, or open and free, it's constricted and simple. Hilariously, in non-combat regions they have many layered multiple pathed areas, many town / airship spaces are very non-linear (and took me a little bit to explore, like Lostwing lol).

I wouldn't say simply having loop backs or useless multi-paths makes it exciting, as that might be a take away and that's not the point, but I would personally lean to either open and freeing (doesn't mean purely open world but, not feeling like I'm on strict rails) or cleverly linear (like GoW). Currently it's neither freeing (loads of invisible walls) nor feels very clever, that sounds like an insult and is not intended as one (opposite of clever might sound like a pejorative, I am NOT saying that but probably am saying 'simple / straight forward' feeling).

There are a lot of games with good level design but some things that stick out to me are some of the Souls games (in general, but like Sens fortress maybe), GoW (new ones), Dishonoured (especially that mansion, may look at Hitmans or Deus Ex for multi-approach as well), Prey, Metroid and Castlevanyia (but keep in mind it's 2d... doesn't translate as smoothly), perhaps Portal for puzzles that unfold themselves yet don't make you feel handheld, etc. Lots of good examples but those ones popped into my mind at first.

Who in this thread is actually playing XVI? It sounds like a lot of people aren't, and you're kinda just talking to talk. Because yeah it's linear. But it's more like old FF linear, not XIV linear.

Some of the 'dungeons' are mostly just DMC linear, not really designed like XIV linearity. Most dungeons have small branches, and some secrets. So it definitely doesn't feel like I'm just auto-running forward like XIV. Mob placement isn't 2 pulls > boss > 2 pulls > boss.. It's more chaotic than that, but it DOES have DMC style 'rooms' and corridors. It's not all string to circle.

If you also open the Location Map, you'll see everything is connected, so it kinda feels like Dark Souls in that way (not Elden Ring).






ALSO - For anyone looking at the main world map and thinking it's all 'Teleport here for small zone' It's also not that. It's more like a bunch of very large areas with multiple Aetherytes. Every teleport option you have on the map goes to an Aetheryte in open world basically. You can see in the second pic it has 3 Aetherytes just in that area. And those are large exploration areas. There's so much misinformation. lol

Anyway - I have my XVI criticisms, but I'm not gonna pretend what it is or isn't.

I usually play in a assuming design sweeping pattern by that I mean I assume the developer's thoughts and work through the space in an attempted efficiency (you can see the design decisions that guide players, lights, shapes, halls, etc, sometimes literally if a marker system is in place, and choose to go the other direction and often be rewarded), and imo the level design feels really simple and not Dark Souls in comparable level design tier.

Opinions are like chocobo butts though and we all have one so we can agree to disagree and that be fine, but my sweeping pattern for this game felt like I was using really simple mental algorithm and no 'exploration'. Vs some of the other games I listed, or Dark Souls as you referenced.

As posted above though I would caution simply responding to the feedback with 'make it more convoluted', or that it has visual issues.

[R041]

I usually play in a assuming design sweeping pattern by that I mean I assume the developer's thoughts and work through the space in an attempted efficiency (you can see the design decisions that guide players, lights, shapes, halls, etc, sometimes literally if a marker system is in place, and choose to go the other direction and often be rewarded), and imo the level design feels really simple and not Dark Souls in comparable level design tier.

Opinions are like chocobo butts though and we all have one so we can agree to disagree and that be fine, but my sweeping pattern for this game felt like I was using really simple mental algorithm and no 'exploration'. Vs some of the other games I listed, or Dark Souls as you referenced.

As posted above though I would caution simply responding to the feedback with 'make it more convoluted', or that it has visual issues.

No you're right - It's not exactly level design like Dark Souls. Just that the levels themselves aren't directly hallways, and have more general freedom. But if you just follow MSQ - You'll be going along a set direction. There's a lot of freedom to stop and look around, and walk in a different direction to check stuff out, do side quests, whatever. And it's not like the MSQ itself discards an area entirely when you walk through it. You go through it multiple times, talk to different people, do different things.

MSQ Dungeons are more like DMC dungeons, not XIV. Where there's some open-ness to them at times, but it's ultimately a few chunks dedicated to mobs, and bosses.

[Shougun]

No you're right - It's not exactly level design like Dark Souls. Just that the levels themselves aren't directly hallways, and have more general freedom. But if you just follow MSQ - You'll be going along a set direction. There's a lot of freedom to stop and look around, and walk in a different direction to check stuff out, do side quests, whatever. And it's not like the MSQ itself discards an area entirely when you walk through it. You go through it multiple times, talk to different people, do different things.

MSQ Dungeons are more like DMC dungeons, not XIV. Where there's some open-ness to them at times, but it's ultimately a few chunks dedicated to mobs, and bosses.

I find your statements agreeable. It is also is probably person perspective particular, like I would 'want' something more cleverly looped and puzzled like GoW or near Souls tier pinnacle design or alternatively more extreme the other direction (at least for open world); however, yeah when we think of DMC design.. pretty much that's the exact design style lol. I wouldn't attribute DMC to fantastic level design either; however, those games make plenty of money and many like it (and the combat arenas are the focus). So definitely not saying it's a garbage fire haha, just that it wasn't really what I thought it might have been if it was existing in a pinnacle form.

[R041]

I find your statements agreeable. It is also is probably person perspective particular, like I would 'want' something more cleverly looped and puzzled like GoW or near Souls tier pinnacle design or alternatively more extreme the other direction (at least for open world); however, yeah when we think of DMC design.. pretty much that's the exact design style lol. I wouldn't attribute DMC to fantastic level design either; however, those games make plenty of money and many like it (and the combat arenas are the focus). So definitely not saying it's a garbage fire haha, just that it wasn't really what I thought it might have been if it was existing in a pinnacle form.

It's funny when you actually sit and think about it - Because we have these ideas in our head before the game is released. We want to believe they can do all sorts of crazy shit right. But it's clear DMC combat wouldn't work in a Souls map, and XIV dungeons also don't really work because you don't 'pull' mobs. So it's very obvious they had to conform the dungeon areas into what DMC did. After-all, that's what they'd be comfortable with, and all games of this type do that.

You kinda have to expect the tropes to all fall into place when given chunks of the same pieces.

[Shougun]

It's funny when you actually sit and think about it - Because we have these ideas in our head before the game is released. We want to believe they can do all sorts of crazy shit right. But it's clear DMC combat wouldn't work in a Souls map, and XIV dungeons also don't really work because you don't 'pull' mobs. So it's very obvious they had to conform the dungeon areas into what DMC did. After-all, that's what they'd be comfortable with, and all games of this type do that.

You kinda have to expect the tropes to all fall into place when given chunks of the same pieces.

I don't hate them (zone level designs), just surprised at some of the simplicity or lack of exploration / 'gameplay' wonderment. I say wonderment because sometimes it's a puzzle or some backtrack that makes you go "ah-ha!". I always considered the environment as a non-verbal character of the game, so interacting with it should be a deep conversation- Souls like games have good practice at silent conversations (including environment). I just felt the gameplay elements of the zones in FFXVI didn't really 'silently' talk to me. Visually, including the visual design not just 'graphic quality' of the landscapes talk very well though- I am often pleased with the visual layouts.

I do think comparing GoW in this situation makes it easier to point out they 'could' have been different, though that doesn't mean they had to be (GoW combat is vaguely similar).

Personally I think what bothers me about the open world, and is also just probably a pet-peeve in general which makes it further personal lol, is that there are so many invisible walls. I see a small rock and think I'll hop up on it and the game is like NAH, YOU GO LEFT, OR YOU GO RIGHT, AND IT GOES TO THE SAME SPOT. Me: "how about this cliff". Game: "YOU GO LEFT OR YOU GO RIGHT- YOU GO TO SAME PLACE I TELL YOU, YOU TWIT". Also probably with a preconceived notion on top of that which was they would improve FFXV's open world exploration which did have some stronger movement controls- so I was pre-hoping for smoother environment interactions. The blending from running to hoping over fences is nice, but the jump is uh.. not very useful and you can imagine most of the game as a 2d isometric (in terms of movement, not visuals obviously). Something about being stuck on the ground, essentially, in a 3d world space, really gets to my monkey brain- 404s and dial up noises right away lol.

So I had visual exploration, but I felt I didn't have much tactical exploration. I think this is made a bit worse by the fact that, and you pointed this out I believe, the general rewards for exploring is like 2 gil and some wyrite lol. Doesn't really feel worth it and doesn't really feel like exploring anyways. I do appreciate that chests get their pop-up icon though, otherwise chests would be invisible lol. Next time I hope they can try to add some more interesting rewards, recipes, music rolls, etc. Probably similar to my feeling on quests, most are fairly straight forward (mechanically- tasks/rewards), but when I did the herbal quest that rewards you better potions I was like "now that's cool, worth".

Dungeons usually have a imperative to them so it's generally okay they're linear (funny thing in Fallout 4 where you are told to save your son and you spend the next 100 hours doing anything but that), and you don't really visit those instances again.. which would be unfortunate if they were loaded with miss-ables, but maybe there should be a few instance spaces that can take more time with you lol. Nearing the end but haven't quite seen one that isn't a sort of FFXIV dungeon path.

I already thought "hm, this is fun" in the beginning but as you get the other primals and the story continues to be (imo) great, game continues to feel better and better from there. Not that I had any major negatives anyways. I think my first thought "plz think of next time" is perhaps some sort of color coded telegraphs like GoW has, I use the focus ring because some enemies are not as communicative as I would wish on their telegraph (and also more importantly I cannot see a freaking thing when I use garuda's tornado, it's awesome looking but gameplay impossible to see lol- some sort of color seeping through the noise to help you would be nice). Then perhaps the exploration with thoughts on a more rewarding (doesn't mean larger amounts of gil) experience, and potentially either more free (less walls) or more structured (like GoW). Next one would be probably making the side quests have a stronger presentation when in casual conversation, lots of nice stories and some have great presentation in action like moments, but the camera work in non-intense moments (especially side quests) reminds me strongly of FFXIV's which is a bit jarring when you go from A+ cinematography to semi-awkward fade to blacks and simple pans. Maybe as an aside but Ramuh's O constantly messes me up as my brain is trained O is for movement and then it pulls me into a HUD and makes me really slow instead lol, would replace it with something else if I could (Ramuh with lightning rod and ignition is a bit hilarious to watch).

Just finished up a few more hours of play after some MSQ and was like damn, have to wait to do more (till next available time to play).. So that's a pretty good .

Funny I said I didn't intend to comment much, but it was nice enough to talk to you that I couldn't help have small thoughts while playing XD.

[R041]

I don't hate them (zone level designs), just surprised at some of the simplicity or lack of exploration / 'gameplay' wonderment. I say wonderment because sometimes it's a puzzle or some backtrack that makes you go "ah-ha!". I always considered the environment as a non-verbal character of the game, so interacting with it should be a deep conversation- Souls like games have good practice at silent conversations (including environment). I just felt the gameplay elements of the zones in FFXVI didn't really 'silently' talk to me. Visually, including the visual design not just 'graphic quality' of the landscapes talk very well though- I am often pleased with the visual layouts.

Personally I think what bothers me about the open world, and is also just probably a pet-peeve in general which makes it further personal lol, is that there are so many invisible walls. I see a small rock and think I'll hop up on it and the game is like NAH, YOU GO LEFT, OR YOU GO RIGHT, AND IT GOES TO THE SAME SPOT. Me: "how about this cliff". Game: "YOU GO LEFT OR YOU GO RIGHT- YOU GO TO SAME PLACE I TELL YOU, YOU TWIT". Also probably with a preconceived notion on top of that which was they would improve FFXV's open world exploration which did have some stronger movement controls- so I was pre-hoping for smoother environment interactions. The blending from running to hoping over fences is nice, but the jump is uh.. not very useful and you can imagine most of the game as a 2d isometric (in terms of movement, not visuals obviously). Something about being stuck on the ground, essentially, in a 3d world space, really gets to my monkey brain- 404s and dial up noises right away lol.

So I had visual exploration, but I felt I didn't have much tactical exploration. I think this is made a bit worse by the fact that, and you pointed this out I believe, the general rewards for exploring is like 2 gil and some wyrite lol. Doesn't really feel worth it and doesn't really feel like exploring anyways. I do appreciate that chests get their pop-up icon though, otherwise chests would be invisible lol. Next time I hope they can try to add some more interesting rewards, recipes, music rolls, etc. Probably similar to my feeling on quests, most are fairly straight forward (mechanically- tasks/rewards), but when I did the herbal quest that rewards you better potions I was like "now that's cool, worth".

Just finished up a few more hours of play after some MSQ and was like damn, have to wait to do more (till next available time to play).. So that's a pretty good .

Funny I said I didn't intend to comment much, but it was nice enough to talk to you that I couldn't help have small thoughts while playing XD.

That's a great writeup - I enjoy discussion. Haha

Yeah the invisible walls everywhere, it kinda seems like they have good world builders, but not great level designers you know? It's usually a really nice area, and then they just throw shit around and block the way, or it's just a 2ft ledge you know you can just hop up. lol

It can be difficult bringing up Souls, because we know they're the masters of world building and especially environment storytelling. I can never really expect anyone to live up to that. But sometimes.. Maybe try a little?

It's very obvious 0-30% progress suffers from similar issues that ARR does. What I don't understand is how they don't realize this can turn a lot of people off, especially when that period is like 20 hours long. It's kinda like XIII in that regard too.

After that, it's starting to kick off for me though, and I'm enjoying my time the more I play.

I don't think anyone's conflating it with some sort of irredeemable problem so much as just an opportunity not taken (it's more just a... salient symptom, so to speak), in the same way that having no customization, or having little combat depth, or little available range in difficulty, or not having a well-crafted learning curve, or not having a responsive and intuitive UI, or having little story coherence, or having little explorable worldstory or backstory, would all be wasted opportunities that could otherwise positively affect a game's apparent quality.

Yeah it's like having 5 acres of land and you never even do anything with it. It's just kinda there, and it's neat to look at. Maybe in 10 years you'll finally build that brick oven and sitting area you've always wanted, but for now you sit on your couch and watch reruns of Friends. lol