war out tanking pld?

[Aceofspades]

good, say somthing when you can prove the words coming outa your mouth are true. Till then please stop litering these forums in wich the Devs use to adjust the game, with falicies and Lies. Fact : DEF reduces damage delt, and the higher it is the less damage you will take. only damage that is not included in this statment is magical, in wich case Stone Skin, a WHM/CNJ protect, rampart, BLM/THM's Sanguine Rite, piety and magical resist can help with that.

[Alerith]

good, say somthing when you can prove the words coming outa your mouth are true. Till then please stop litering these forums in wich the Devs use to adjust the game, with falicies and Lies. Fact : DEF reduces damage delt, and the higher it is the less damage you will take. only damage that is not included in this statment is magical, in wich case Stone Skin, a WHM/CNJ protect, rampart, BLM/THM's Sanguine Rite, piety and magical resist can help with that.

Sweet jeezus, you aren't even comprehending the argument.

Nobody, not even me, has said that defense doesn't do what it's supposed to do. We are saying that what it does is useless because the difference in the damage you take with the amount of defense required to do it can easily be made up for, and surpassed, by higher HP.

Fact: It's easier to put 40HP into an armor piece than it is to increase your defense enough to reduce the damage you take by 40. And guess what? HP applies to magic damage too! Holy balls! Can you imagine?

Bloodthirst IV increases your max HP by 55 points.
Bloodwall IV increases your DEF by +16.

According to the testing, you know what +16 gets you? Not -55 physical damage taken. Even if you double, triple or quad meld a pair of Sentinel's Gauntlets with +DEF materia, they aren't going to beat out a pair of Sentinel's Gauntlets with a double, triple or quad meld of +HP materia of the same calibur.

Yes. Defense reduces the physical damage you take the higher the value is (until you reach a certain point.) That does not nullify my argument that HP is better and stacking HP will perform better than trying to stack DEF to get a similar result.

[Aceofspades]

This simply isn't true at the moment.

You're right, WAR can't generate hate like a PLD, but it generates it in it's own way which is equally effective. And in many cases where you're fighting a single target, PLD can do the job.

But with the large amount of HP WAR has over PLD alone makes it more preferred because a PLD's greater defense doesn't make up for the HP gap.

Now, PLD has better survivability, which is great for things like Ifrit and Moogle, but when it comes to dungeons where efficiency is more valued, WAR is going to do better.

As you say, tanking is about holding hate. WAR can hold that hate from the rest of the party. And deal damage. And heal itself to an extent. It may require a little more mage attention, but at the moment, WAR can tank just as well as PLD and contribute more to the battle. (In dungeons.)

wrong again , and you are being hipocritical to your other statement. Hate generation on the two jobs are COMPLETLY diffrent. WAR generates hate off of damage dealing moves combined with hate multipliers. Most of these moves require TP to start the combos and acuracy to land them. to sum this up into a tight little package , WAR generates hate best on mobs that have low resist to physical damage / low evasion / and generally lower LVLs. Anytime this is not the case PLD will easly pull hate off the WAR. PLD only requires little tp, and the combos they do are only two part and the abilties they do to start the combos have high accuarcy rate reducing the need for PLD to need TP , in wich case is not an issue when the mob deliver 250 tp by doing 500 damage. But thats not to mention their capabilities to do AOE party buffs/heals in wich case mind ( a natural pld stat) increases the hate it generates , not damage. Other moves like "spirts within" off a combo get a larger enmity boost the more % of your HP you have when the combo is used. Again, dosent require PLD to hit hard. All signs point to : PLD = endgame tank WAR = easy mob / speed run tank

[Aceofspades]

Sweet jeezus, you aren't even comprehending the argument.

Nobody, not even me, has said that defense doesn't do what it's supposed to do. We are saying that what it does is useless because the difference in the damage you take with the amount of defense required to do it can easily be made up for, and surpassed, by higher HP.

Fact: It's easier to put 40HP into an armor piece than it is to increase your defense enough to reduce the damage you take by 40. And guess what? HP applies to magic damage too! Holy balls! Can you imagine?

Bloodthirst IV increases your max HP by 55 points.
Bloodwall IV increases your DEF by +16.

According to the testing, you know what +16 gets you? Not -55 physical damage taken. Even if you double, triple or quad meld a pair of Sentinel's Gauntlets with +DEF materia, they aren't going to beat out a pair of Sentinel's Gauntlets with a double, triple or quad meld of +HP materia of the same calibur.

Yes. Defense reduces the physical damage you take the higher the value is (until you reach a certain point.) That does not nullify my argument that HP is better and stacking HP will perform better than trying to stack DEF to get a similar result.

No, what nullifies your Argument is the fact that me taking even 10 less damage then you , over a corse of a fight = more HP then you have melded to your armor. Hense taking less damage in turn save your more HP then you can add to gear. Wich explains why the value of DEF per materia is much less greater then that of the HP per materia. Soo if 16 def = -10 damage then 100 def will equal 100 less damage per hit wich even further devalues that HP materia you are soo intent on.

[Alerith]

wrong again , and you are being hipocritical to your other statement. Hate generation on the two jobs are COMPLETLY diffrent. WAR generates hate off of damage dealing moves combined with hate multipliers. Most of these moves require TP to start the combos and acuracy to land them. to sum this up into a tight little package , WAR generates hate best on mobs that have low resist to physical damage / low evasion / and generally lower LVLs. Anytime this is not the case PLD will easly pull hate off the WAR. PLD only requires little tp, and the combos they do are only two part and the abilties they do to start the combos have high accuarcy rate reducing the need for PLD to need TP , in wich case is not an issue when the mob deliver 250 tp by doing 500 damage. But thats not to mention their capabilities to do AOE party buffs/heals in wich case mind ( a natural pld stat) increases the hate it generates , not damage. Other moves like "spirts within" off a combo get a larger enmity boost the more % of your HP you have when the combo is used. Again, dosent require PLD to hit hard. All signs point to : PLD = endgame tank WAR = easy mob / speed run tank

I agree that PLD is very capable. I'm not going to dispute that fact. And in most cases you are fighting a single target, PLD WILL win out simply because WAR's strengths are completely lost on a single target.

The only question I have is, unless I'm reading your post wrong, where does it say that the enmity from Spirit's Within is greater when your HP is higher? As far as I know, the only effect your HP has on Spirit's Within is damage.

And yes, damage translates into enmity, but I'm unaware of HP and enmity being linked for that combo.

[Aceofspades]

its in the patch notes when they gave us emnity with the combo.

[Alerith]

No, what nullifies your Argument is the fact that me taking even 10 less damage then you , over a corse of a fight = more HP then you have melded to your armor. Hense taking less damage in turn save your more HP then you can add to gear. Wich explains why the value of DEF per materia is much less greater then that of the HP per materia. Soo if 16 def = -10 damage then 100 def will equal 100 less damage per hit wich even further devalues that HP materia you are soo intent on.

Currently, what fight in the entire game lasts long enough where physical damage reduction outlasts higher HP? And according to Kanican's testing, it takes roughly 30 DEF to reduce physical damage taken by roughly five. (I didn't do the exact math, so I won't claim an exact correlation.)

Also quoted from the testing: "Another notable feature if we look at the table of data is that there appears to be a cap on the amount of defense one can stack before no gains are seen. In the table, defense works up to the point where the damage range becomes 35-42 (38.5 predicted average). "

Which means at that point, any further increase in defense nets you no gains. I'm unaware of an HP cap at the moment. (Though I've never tried to quad-meld every item I own with tier IV HP materia.)

its in the patch notes when they gave us emnity with the combo.

It says that enmity is now the combo bonus. I'll go back and look, but I don't recall anything about the enmity varying with your HP.

[Alerith]

All I'm getting from the patch notes for Spirit's Within is:

- Recast time reduced from 120 to 60 seconds.
- Revised effect:
Delivers a high-accuracy melee attack at close range. Increased damage with greater current HP.
Combo Action: Phalanx
Combo Bonus: Increased enmity.

Nothing about HP affecting the enmity.

[Aceofspades]

again your refering to a chart that has nothing to counter the solid evidance I posted. His (un proven) results over my parses that have the raw data staring you in the face? Maybe his stuff is dated but like I have said before, show me SOLID data and I will aknowledge your argument. What you brought to the table is simple theory that is still unsuported. I can disprove that entire link with one FRAPS of PLing.... I mean why is this even up for debate? the evidance is In your face anytime you do anything battle related in the game, the higher your DEF the less damage you take and if the rate was 30 def for 5 damage then mages and archers would have a MUCH easier time taking damage. Like I said, I came with solid evidance. Show some respect and do the same, or dont judge my findings.

[Aceofspades]

Because of the reduced recast time from 2 minutes to 60 seconds they reduced the efectivness of flat blade to fast blade to be influenced by mind, and when they introduced the combo it was stated that the % of your HP bar at the time the combo was used would effect the Enmity it generated. Maybe it was in dev notes, none the less it was there and I read it. But you did find the patch notes it would only be right of me to find the letter stating what I have said. be a minute tho