So does every hate new PLD now?

[Renathras]

LMAO "learning rotations"

Imagine writing this shit as they water down yet another job in the game. Yeah THAT'S the problem people have. that they have to "learn the rotation".

He's right, though. This forum's most prolific posters and posts are complaining about the status quo and demanding changes, and then attacking any changes made, sometimes even changes that they more or less asked for. While you can argue they're different people, sometimes they actually aren't.

And he's right about this being an echo chamber, too. PLD and SMN reworks have both been pretty well received everywhere but the forums dedicated to the game. People in game seem to like them, it's just the people that want to inflate egos by talking down "brain-dead" things to prove they're cool/etc that have a problem with it.

EDIT:

And, well, in-game, on Reddit, in various XIV Discords, across most polls, etc.

And in game, in different discussion groups, in different various XIV Discords, and in actual census data, etc., they have been pretty well received. Hell, in the "everyone hates new PLD now" thread here of all places, the result has been mixed rather than completely negative, with a lot saying they like it and many saying that they're neutral and/or don't see it as worse than PLD before.

But let's ignore those since we wouldn't then be able to dismiss any population with an opinion not replaceable with unrequested spokespeople as a "vocal minority".

Ahh, yes, the community (alone) is to blame for most Monkey's Paw changes.

Largely, yes.

Not ALL, but a significant amount of changes were in response to community requests. Why do we have a Tomestone Relic? Because a significant amount of people complained about Eureka and Bozja (which was itself an attempt to address the complaints about Eureka). People wished on the Monkey's Paw for something different, and they got it - not what they wanted; they wanted HW again.

People on one Job complain about something another has that seems like good QOL for them, but that's what homogenization looks like. Even seeing how close DRK is to WAR, a lot of DRK players are asking for it to be more like WAR - not using those words. They want more self-sustain, especially in dungeons - kinda like what WAR has - they want less oGCD spam and more big, meaty, hard feeling hitting abilities to reflect their big slow sword - kinda like what WAR has. No one sees that as what they're asking for...but it's what they're asking for. They think it's different, not homogenization, can be done where it "feels" different, etc, to be fair to them...but the end result is generally the same. Hell, the Dev solution to Living Dead was to slap Bloodwhetting onto it.

The 2 min meta is from people complaining about how it was annoying trying to line up buffs and how some comps didn't work well in ShB because the buffs didn't line up. The crit meta and boosted damage (playing even more into the burst meta) of autocrit abilities was also the result of complaints.

Obviously, the complainers didn't want THOSE solutions, but the "solutions" are mostly due to complaints.

Not all, no. But quite a few. That's what a Monkey's Paw is and how it works - you make a wish, and it corrupts it. But it starts with a wish.

[Shurrikhan]

PLD and SMN reworks have both been pretty well received everywhere but the forums dedicated to the game...

it's just the people that want to inflate egos by talking down "brain-dead" things to prove they're cool/etc that have a problem with it.

And, well, in-game, on Reddit, in various XIV Discords, across most polls, etc.

But let's ignore those since we wouldn't then be able to dismiss any population with an opinion not replaceable with unrequested spokespeople as a "vocal minority".

This forum's most prolific posters and posts are complaining about the status quo and demanding changes, and then attacking any changes made

Ahh, yes, the community (alone) is to blame for most Monkey's Paw changes.

/sigh

[Shurrikhan]

That's what a Monkey's Paw is and how it works - you make a wish, and it corrupts it. But it starts with a wish.

Except any response for which the requester can be blamed, Monkey's Paw or no, has to be to the actual request, not a conveniently cherry-picked portion thereof that ignores all context and purposely misconstrues the message.

An actual Monkey's Paw outcome starts with the wish, not 'the wish, if most of it were removed and the rest played backward.'

We still call the disliked outcomes "Monkey's Paw" as shorthand because the wish was perverted, but in this case it's because the wish was never really listened to in the first place, not because of some demonic intent.

If we had been painfully ambiguous leading up to the given unsatifying outcome, I would agree -- we would be at fault. But those aren't the cases that get "attacked", as you put it.

What was the most common complaint when Ninjas were complaining about the impact of latency on Mudras/Ninjutsu? The uptime cost due to ping.

There was no community push to make them into GCDs. There was, however, a hugely unified push to remove the way our clients reset their truly global internal cooldowns (the period of time after any action for which no further action can be made), to the benefit of every job in the game.

While the TCJ change was borrowed wholesale from the community, there was zero push to further simplify NIN's GCD rotation by turning a combo into Sonic Break-lite.

If the changes were made per the actual requests given, we'd simply have seen the roundtrip-ping uptime cost per action removed from the game (currently done by a large portion of PC players via a plugin that just toggles off that unnecessary self-sabotage), DWD-Assassination turned into a single button, TCJ possibly swiftened, and Meisui buffed or rehauled. That was it. The requests were very clear, and no part of them asked for the removal of combos.

Shake it Off? Warriors asked for it to actually work (i.e., cleanse at least what all Esuna could), and to be potentially buffed to actually have effect in that same vein worth putting on one's bar. What did they get? A simplified copy of Veil with the Intervention gimmick in place of Veil's pre-cooling capacity.

Inner Release? Warriors asked for it not to take so long to wind up and to be of better use in emergencies, such as by doubling Beast Gauge generated, and for small Unchained buffs opposite it. What did they get? A complete simplification that removed 2 abilities.

Delirium? Dark Knights asked for it to be more, in itself, than just a bit of extra buff duration and a bit of MP, ideally in a way that makes them feel like they're tapping into that Blood/Void-based 'delirium'. What did they get? A later-day Inner Release clone.

Summoner's whole EW rework? The community asked for its depth to be quickly appreciable / intuitive and for it to build more around summons-as-pets and their elements. The results, most depth was simply outright removed, pets were removed in favor of variably delayed spells (chicken nugget walks in; chicken nugget go boom -> big chicken nugget drops in; big chicken nugget go boom), and the actual number of useful offensive actions for any given point in time were halved. Only a quarter of the result at most followed the community's requests ('their elements'); the rest fell outside the requests or were directly contradictory to them.

Tl;dr:
You would have to go well out of your way to blind yourself to the comments, and then purposely misconstrue what little remains, for those changes that have since been so criticized to have been 'based on' what the community requested. They wouldn't be so heavily criticized if they were actually in keeping with what was asked for.

[Deo14]

Except any response for which the requester can be blamed, Monkey's Paw or no, has to be to the actual request, not a conveniently cherry-picked portion thereof that ignores all context and purposely misconstrues the message.

An actual Monkey's Paw outcome starts with the wish, not 'the wish, if most of it were removed and the rest played backward.'

Speaking of monkeys, I still wonder what monkey asked for removing Kaiten. After all it must have been monkey, there is no way real human can be entertained by spamming on average 1 Shinten every 7.5 - 8 seconds. Can't wait for the devs to "fix" SAM in 7.0 by adding instacasts and more.

[Shurrikhan]

Speaking of monkeys, I still wonder what monkey asked for removing Kaiten. After all it must have been monkey, there is no way real human can be entertained by spamming on average 1 Shinten even 7.5 - 8 seconds. Can't wait for the devs to "fix" SAM in 7.0 by adding instacasts and more.

We give: "Endwalker Samurai has a bloated number of actions. Examples: Shoha II not being simply an upgrade or conditional effect of Shoha, Ogi Namikiri being separate from Ikishoten. Additionally, the removal of varied Kenki costs (and the lesser frequency of burst Kenki generation) has made SAM's gauge expenditure feel increasingly like Shinten-spam."

We get: *Kaiten removed. All gauge use outside of movement skills is now effectively Shinten-spam.*

...: "But hey, the community said there was action bloat! And you all mentioned Shinten spam!"

[Deo14]

We give: "Endwalker Samurai has a bloated number of actions. Examples: Shoha II not being simply an upgrade or conditional effect of Shoha, Ogi Namikiri being separate from Ikishoten. Additionally, the removal of varied Kenki costs (and the lesser frequency of burst Kenki generation) has made SAM's gauge expenditure feel increasingly like Shinten-spam."

We get: *Kaiten removed. All gauge use outside of movement skills is now effectively Shinten-spam.*

...: "But hey, the community said there was action bloat! And you all mentioned Shinten spam!"

Best part is that because Shinten is 25 kenki and Kaiten was 20, it made it so now you would leave burst with 10 kenki, so you want to use that last kenki for gap closer to get extra 100p under pot. So not only there is exact same amount of actions you use in burst, but you also use same amount of buttons, and on top of that, you use gap closer for its damage (which imo is much worse design that using X before every Y). Burst barely changed, and you get very, very slightly less actions in filler, which is really not the problematic part. All it did was to make freestyle SAM even more viable.

[Shurrikhan]

Best part is that because Shinten is 25 kenki and Kaiten was 20, it made it so now you would leave burst with 10 kenki, so you want to use that last kenki for gap closer to get extra 100p under pot. So not only there is exact same amount of actions you use in burst, but you also use same amount of buttons, and on top of that, you use gap closer for its damage (which imo is much worse design that using X before every Y). Burst barely changed, and you get very, very slightly less actions in filler, which is really not the problematic part. All it did was to make freestyle SAM even more viable.

Tbf, I'm not going to give them crap over the ~4 rppm difference of the gap closer under pot, and I don't mind "Freestyle" SAM being less punishing.

I just think the gauge should have a goddamn point and worry that they'll now, instead of returning Kaiten or reverting Guren/Senei to 50 gauge, probably just remove Yaten/Guren from the gauge, too and replace them with 3 shared charges on a 30s CD.*

* (Not that I'd hate 2-3 shared charges for Yaten/Gyoten each on a 10s CD or shorter, on the gauge, to be clear.)