Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[Raikai]

...it's also the least played of the Casters by the general playerbase and in casual content, and not by a small margin, indicating that they are probably not the majority and that a lot of people enjoy something that isn't that. A lot of people really hate BLM. And that's fine, too. As long as they have something that isn't like BLM.

BLM is there for people like you guys who want to squeeze every ounce out of your skill and a Job's capabilities.
SMN is there for people not like you.

This is the way.

This is something I have issue with, and that is inherent to how we have, for a lack of a better example, jobs being equivalent of WoW's class specializations. Talking from purely a mechanical standpoint, yeah, we have options for different skill ceilings, but the game is not just a spreadsheet, so on the other hand it sucks when the job you're most fascinated with in a RPG sense is way above your skill level (BLM for some) or way too simple for your tastes (SMN to others). I am a HUGE fan of SMN's job fantasy - my favorite job across other titles - and endured its barebone mechanics for a while until I couldn't anymore... However, as much as BLM probably suits me more as a caster, I just can't get into the visuals.

I think in an ideal world, since we can't have different ways of playing the same job RPG fantasy, we should have accessible skill floors, and medium to high skill ceilings. BLM lacks the former, but have a great example of the latter with different types of optimizations, SMN is the reverse.

[Ivtrix]

Why should Summomer be punished for that?

Buff rdm or make it more appealing for players to want to play it over Summoner. No reason to bring Summoner down just because more players prefer the easier to understand job.

A lot of players find easy jobs fun. It's why they play them. Only hardcore players, the minority, actually care about the skill ceiling. Most players just want a job that they can enjoy, do decently as, and not get stressed out.

It just so happens that Summoner isn't bad either. Not the best, but good enough which makes it appealing to a lot of players.

It does affect players if more is added to a job. No player wants to play a job with a ton of extras that they will feel obligated to learn as it exists.

It's why a lot of Tanks prefer Warrior over Gunbreaker. It's simple, good at what it does, and isn't held down by a lot of extra nauces to it and easy to track its systems.

You’re completely missing the point. The objective isn’t to punish players. It’s to reward players for playing the job beyond the basic functions of how the job plays. The bottom line isn’t effected in any way shape or form. This won’t and shouldn’t affect people who play the job for fun and because it’s easy, because every single job in this game is very easy to pick up and play at a fundamental level. That is by design. I won’t comment on the specific dps numbers since it’s a different issue but SMN and RDM by design will be in theory very close to each other.

[Deo14]

Why should Summomer be punished for that?

Buff rdm or make it more appealing for players to want to play it over Summoner. No reason to bring Summoner down just because more players prefer the easier to understand job.

A lot of players find easy jobs fun. It's why they play them. Only hardcore players, the minority, actually care about the skill ceiling. Most players just want a job that they can enjoy, do decently as, and not get stressed out.

It just so happens that Summoner isn't bad either. Not the best, but good enough which makes it appealing to a lot of players.

It does affect players if more is added to a job. No player wants to play a job with a ton of extras that they will feel obligated to learn as it exists.

It's why a lot of Tanks prefer Warrior over Gunbreaker. It's simple, good at what it does, and isn't held down by a lot of extra nauces to it and easy to track its systems.

If you significantly buffed RDM, you would punish SMN instead. If you really wanted to offset DPS by their difficulty, than tables will turn and SMN will be so weak nobody would play it, even though it's simpler. That's fair on paper, but community will lock SMN players from harder content.

You're not obligated to learn more about the job if you play normal content, and clearly, many people don't. Play expert roulette or similar as DRK without using all the damage oGCDs and tell me you didn't manage to get a clear. Same can be applied to the legendary ice mages. You can still clear normal content if you play only 30% of your job. Problem is that 30% of one job, is 90% of SMN.

And no, WAR vs GNB comparison doesn't work, WAR just recently became super popular because of buffs, last tier was dominated by DRKs merely because it had slightly higher damage than other tanks.

Even though WAR has simpler rotation, it's difficulty is still very similar to DRK. DRK is just WAR with more oGCDs sprinkled on top. GNB is really just regular 1-2-3, with continuation and few extra oGCDs. Most importantly, tanks do tank on top of doing their DPS rotation. Mitigation, watching your health and so on acts as a catalyst which helps normalizing difficulty of each tank. Difficulty difference between WAR and GNB is minimal compared to something like SMN and RDM.

Also, people are currently pretty mad that WAR is simplest, has highest DPS and best self sustain. Similarly, people are unhappy that SMN is just better RDM in all accounts, while being much easier.

[Eorzean_username]

If you want a side by side example:

Ivtrix, your basic point is perfectly-valid from a "game design" / "balance" standpoint, but I think you aren't understanding how the wider playerbase instinctively reacts to a comparison like that.

You're trying to demonstrate, from your perspective: "Wow, seems like Summoner is too easy, we should make Summoner harder".

But most players, shown that comparison, will instead conclude: "Wow, seems like Red Mage is too hard, we should make Red Mage easier".

In order to understand why Jobs like Summoner are so popular now, it's important to realize that only a very narrow segment of players actually enjoy the challenge of optimizing a Job in the way that you've described in your TOP example.

I think that, for most players, they simply do not view FFXIV that seriously, nor as justifying that kind of effort or investment out of the hours of their wider life. As a result, they react positively to Jobs like EW Summoner that can be played "intuitively" in a wide variety of situations, and where understanding how to adjust and "optimize" it (so to speak) feels straightforward enough to figure out on their own, without consulting spreadsheets and "help channels".

I really need to stress that "Oh, it's okay, you can suck and still clear content!" is actually not a satisfying "compromise" to a lot of players.

People often pull out the "haha ice mages" type exaggerated extremes, but I think that most players don't actually fall into those edge cases — in my experience, at least (anecdotal though it all is), most players do at least try to understand what their Job "wants" them to do, and they become frustrated and discouraged if they feel like they can't pull it off consistently.

As strange as it may seem from the perspective of someone who's seriously-dedicated to the game, a lot of players also just do not seek external resources — they will try to figure things out, but if they can't figure it out "on their own", they either stop worrying about it, or become frustrated and pick a different Job.

I want to stress that I'm not arguing "right" or "wrong" here, and I'm not saying you're "wrong" for enjoying a game that rewards you for thinking about things in a depthy, complicated, or extensive way. I'm just trying to clarify that a vast amount of the playerbase neither enjoys that, nor sees it as a valuable design pursuit, and that causes the friction you're seeing here.

It's really not about just "able to clear normal content" vs. "not able to clear normal content"; that's oversimplifying the issue. People want to feel like they're playing "correctly", not "scraping by because it doesn't matter anyway".

[Vandso]

Jeez, you guys are still going at it. I didn't expect this post to be so successfull.

I see many valid points in this complexity x simplicity war, but there's one thing everyone seems to agree: Ramuh, Shiva and Leviathan should be added. Please Yoshi-P, the people are screaming!

Imo I don't see much of a problem in the summoning mechanic itself, my biggest gripe is Aetherflow. It's there for some reason but it doesn't seem to have any impact at all as a mechanic. Which is why I think it should be reworked or updated.

Imo they should make Fester cost 2 Aetherflows instead of 1, and make it so every lego you spend grants 1 Aetherflow stack. That way you would have to fit 6 Festers throughout your rotation, making you think more about the timing of the summons you're using.

[Raikai]

Jeez, you guys are still going at it. I didn't expect this post to be so successfull.

I see many valid points in this complexity x simplicity war, but there's one thing everyone seems to agree: Ramuh, Shiva and Leviathan should be added. Please Yoshi-P, the people are screaming!

Imo I don't see much of a problem in the summoning mechanic itself, my biggest gripe is Aetherflow. It's there for some reason but it doesn't seem to have any impact at all as a mechanic. Which is why I think it should be reworked or updated.

Imo they should make Fester cost 2 Aetherflows instead of 1, and make it so every lego you spend grants 1 Aetherflow stack. That way you would have to fit 6 Festers throughout your rotation, making you think more about the timing of the summons you're using.

Oh for sure! One thing I think that regardless how the SMN mechanics were delivered, they certainly "saved" the remaining gemstones and elemental affinities to add next tier. Aquamarine Leviathan, Amethyst Ramuh and Diamond Shiva (yeah, I'll die on the hill that it should be diamond and not sapphire lol).

*made this right after the rework

My expectations are that they'll make this new cycle (possibly after Phoenix) more cast time oriented.

[Vandso]

Oh for sure! One thing I think that regardless how the SMN mechanics were delivered, they certainly "saved" the remaining gemstones and elemental affinities to add next tier. Aquamarine Leviathan, Amethyst Ramuh and Diamond Shiva (yeah, I'll die on the hill that it should be diamond and not sapphire lol).

*made this right after the rework

My expectations are that they'll make this new cycle (possibly after Phoenix) more cast time oriented.

That is cute. Is that a Taffeta Shawl and Eden Gloves you're using?

I would be happy with the three other summons even if they were just visual. But yeah, I agree that it would be cool if they were more casting oriented.

Also, I can't wait for 8.0 when they add Alexander.

[seolhyun]

smn is braindead. ppl that say "i feel like a summoner" are just copium because they want an easy job. every summon does aoe damage and lights up 2 buttons. nothing unique or different about what u choose to summon. phoenix does a little healing but u cant choose to use it wisely it must be used on cd.

also highly doubt they "ran out of time" and will expand on it next xpac. fully expect more summons to be added that do the same pointless things and spam 1 button for 2 more years. smn is now made for the afk modders who dont want to do anything that takes them out of emoting in town.

[ZephyrMenodora]

smn is braindead. ppl that say "i feel like a summoner" are just copium because they want an easy job. every summon does aoe damage and lights up 2 buttons. nothing unique or different about what u choose to summon. phoenix does a little healing but u cant choose to use it wisely it must be used on cd.

also highly doubt they "ran out of time" and will expand on it next xpac. fully expect more summons to be added that do the same pointless things and spam 1 button for 2 more years. smn is now made for the afk modders who dont want to do anything that takes them out of emoting in town.

Praise Menphina! I love it!

[Raikai]

That is cute. Is that a Taffeta Shawl and Eden Gloves you're using?

Yeah! Coliseum Shawl more specifically because it has a better color pattern than the Taffeta dyed. That and the Edenmete gloves are favorites of mine.

smn is braindead. ppl that say "i feel like a summoner" are just copium because they want an easy job.

Visually the job is now cohese and strong with the classic final fantasy summoner and does make feel like one more than before.

The package's painting has nothing to do with how it works, as 'braindead' as it is. I don't really understand this kind of attack to people who likes the job because of an aesthetic fulfillment.