Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

But RDM, for example, is suffering directly because of SMN. Is it fine that one job makes other redundant, as long as that one job is "having fun"? And again, popularity doesn't mean that job is good, there are people who don't care what job they play, they will just play the easiest available job. I don't even think anyone suggested that we should add button bloat to SMN, but that we should add more nuances, which again, won't affect people that don't want to learn them, they will merely deal less damage for their less effort they put in, which is fair.

Why should Summomer be punished for that?

Buff rdm or make it more appealing for players to want to play it over Summoner. No reason to bring Summoner down just because more players prefer the easier to understand job.

A lot of players find easy jobs fun. It's why they play them. Only hardcore players, the minority, actually care about the skill ceiling. Most players just want a job that they can enjoy, do decently as, and not get stressed out.

It just so happens that Summoner isn't bad either. Not the best, but good enough which makes it appealing to a lot of players.

It does affect players if more is added to a job. No player wants to play a job with a ton of extras that they will feel obligated to learn as it exists.

It's why a lot of Tanks prefer Warrior over Gunbreaker. It's simple, good at what it does, and isn't held down by a lot of extra nauces to it and easy to track its systems.

[Ivtrix]

Why should Summomer be punished for that?

Buff rdm or make it more appealing for players to want to play it over Summoner. No reason to bring Summoner down just because more players prefer the easier to understand job.

A lot of players find easy jobs fun. It's why they play them. Only hardcore players, the minority, actually care about the skill ceiling. Most players just want a job that they can enjoy, do decently as, and not get stressed out.

It just so happens that Summoner isn't bad either. Not the best, but good enough which makes it appealing to a lot of players.

It does affect players if more is added to a job. No player wants to play a job with a ton of extras that they will feel obligated to learn as it exists.

It's why a lot of Tanks prefer Warrior over Gunbreaker. It's simple, good at what it does, and isn't held down by a lot of extra nauces to it and easy to track its systems.

You’re completely missing the point. The objective isn’t to punish players. It’s to reward players for playing the job beyond the basic functions of how the job plays. The bottom line isn’t effected in any way shape or form. This won’t and shouldn’t affect people who play the job for fun and because it’s easy, because every single job in this game is very easy to pick up and play at a fundamental level. That is by design. I won’t comment on the specific dps numbers since it’s a different issue but SMN and RDM by design will be in theory very close to each other.

[Deo14]

Why should Summomer be punished for that?

Buff rdm or make it more appealing for players to want to play it over Summoner. No reason to bring Summoner down just because more players prefer the easier to understand job.

A lot of players find easy jobs fun. It's why they play them. Only hardcore players, the minority, actually care about the skill ceiling. Most players just want a job that they can enjoy, do decently as, and not get stressed out.

It just so happens that Summoner isn't bad either. Not the best, but good enough which makes it appealing to a lot of players.

It does affect players if more is added to a job. No player wants to play a job with a ton of extras that they will feel obligated to learn as it exists.

It's why a lot of Tanks prefer Warrior over Gunbreaker. It's simple, good at what it does, and isn't held down by a lot of extra nauces to it and easy to track its systems.

If you significantly buffed RDM, you would punish SMN instead. If you really wanted to offset DPS by their difficulty, than tables will turn and SMN will be so weak nobody would play it, even though it's simpler. That's fair on paper, but community will lock SMN players from harder content.

You're not obligated to learn more about the job if you play normal content, and clearly, many people don't. Play expert roulette or similar as DRK without using all the damage oGCDs and tell me you didn't manage to get a clear. Same can be applied to the legendary ice mages. You can still clear normal content if you play only 30% of your job. Problem is that 30% of one job, is 90% of SMN.

And no, WAR vs GNB comparison doesn't work, WAR just recently became super popular because of buffs, last tier was dominated by DRKs merely because it had slightly higher damage than other tanks.

Even though WAR has simpler rotation, it's difficulty is still very similar to DRK. DRK is just WAR with more oGCDs sprinkled on top. GNB is really just regular 1-2-3, with continuation and few extra oGCDs. Most importantly, tanks do tank on top of doing their DPS rotation. Mitigation, watching your health and so on acts as a catalyst which helps normalizing difficulty of each tank. Difficulty difference between WAR and GNB is minimal compared to something like SMN and RDM.

Also, people are currently pretty mad that WAR is simplest, has highest DPS and best self sustain. Similarly, people are unhappy that SMN is just better RDM in all accounts, while being much easier.

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

@Deo14 (Since quote is too long)

I doubt that buffing RDM would punish Summoners in 99% of content if Summoner is left untouched. Players would still play Summoner because it's fun and easy to play as.

Not obligated? I disagree. If there's more things for a Job to do and can do then Players are obligated to learn it or pick another Job. Which is what a lot of Players did when they picked Summoner as their Caster job over the more complicated ones.

Sounds to me that those jobs need to be changed then if only 30% is necessary compared to the 90% of Summoner. On paper that makes Summoner the way more efficient job if more players use it to its potential without too much issue. Not really something to aspire to, to make a job too complicated or busy work that most players will only use 30% of what it has to offer.

It is a fair comparison as they're both in the Tanking roles. Warrior is FAR simpler than Gunbreaker and Dark Knight and players can start learning it at level 1. I would also disagree on difficulty, as Warrior has way better self-healing and it doesn't have a couple mitigations locked out if a Boss doesn't use a certain type of attack (Magic).

If people are mad, then I'm not seeing it as Warrior is the most common tank I see running around.

That sounds like a RDM issue, not a Summoner issue. So, fix RDM. Players aren't going to abandon Summoner in huge numbers all of a sudden for a job that's much more busy work (and switching things up) compared to Summoner unless it's buffed to ridiculous levels which it won't be.

[Deo14]

I doubt that buffing RDM would punish Summoners in 99% of content if Summoner is left untouched. Players would still play Summoner because it's fun and easy to play as.

So are you fine with SMN being locked out of EX and higher content? We're talking RDM having potentially 10%+ higher overall damage contribution than SMN if we wanted to rank DPS by their difficulty. Keep in mind that in 6.2, community was not allowing multiple jobs to join their party, because they were just few % weaker than other jobs.

Not obligated? I disagree. If there's more things for a Job to do and can do then Players are obligated to learn it or pick another Job. Which is what a lot of Players did when they picked Summoner as their Caster job over the more complicated ones.

But you just don't have to do them. Look at current SMN, what makes you feel like you're obliged to use Searing Light, Aetherflow skills or others? You can do your regular summon rotation without it. And what's wrong with players learning? That's how all games work, you learn the game's system and you get better. It's not like other "hard" jobs are hard to learn, they are already pretty easy if you just read your tooltips.

Sounds to me that those jobs need to be changed then if only 30% is necessary compared to the 90% of Summoner. On paper that makes Summoner the way more efficient job if more players use it to its potential without too much issue. Not really something to aspire to, to make a job too complicated or busy work that most players will only use 30% of what it has to offer.

This is just peak of how lazy you can get. Why would you need to learn a job? Why won't we just have 1 button rotation? Healers already have that, ask them how they like it. And if we already have 1 button rotation, why even play it? Can't FFXIV just be a movie at that point?

It is a fair comparison as they're both in the Tanking roles. Warrior is FAR simpler than Gunbreaker and Dark Knight and players can start learning it at level 1. I would also disagree on difficulty, as Warrior has way better self-healing and it doesn't have a couple mitigations locked out if a Boss doesn't use a certain type of attack (Magic).

WAR vs GNB, potentially, if you have hard time tracking your cartridges and somehow struggle with few oGCDs. WAR vs DRK, not a chance. Difference between DRK and WAR is that you just spam some extra oGCDs in your burst, that's everything there is to it. You don't need to upkeep Darkside, order of your oGCDs isn't super relevant, and there is no other complexity. Difficulty coming from Dark Mind is irrelevant here, we're talking about people who want to put as little effort as they can, no way they can differentiate between magical and physical attack.

If people are mad, then I'm not seeing it as Warrior is the most common tank I see running around.

Of course WAR is running around, he's OP, which is why other people are mad. WAR discredits other tanks by being jack of all trades while having highest damage.

That sounds like a RDM issue, not a Summoner issue. So, fix RDM. Players aren't going to abandon Summoner in huge numbers all of a sudden for a job that's much more busy work (and switching things up) compared to Summoner unless it's buffed to ridiculous levels which it won't be.

So you're suggesting to give RDM a SMN treatment and gut it until there's nothing left? I'm curious how RDM mains will like that. One expansion of being too weak balance wise, and they neuter it in next expansion? I'll start hoarding all the popcorn right now for that shitshow.