Your Opinion on the Current State of Job Identity/Balance in 6.4?

[Renathras]

HB to try and get the topic back on the topic.

I likely wouldn't have even responded had you not so smugly typed what I quoted; that "Maybe don't call people out on things they can school you on."

You mean my reply to someone who was trying to be a dick? (Which wasn't, btw, even you)

Spare me. All you had to do was ask a question instead of joining in the hate train. It's not hard, I do it all the time when I read something someone says and think "Wait, that's not quite right. Did they mean...?" instead of trying to pounce on them and contributing to a lynch mob.

You left off the part where I said that SPELLS WITH A CAST TIME (which includes ones longer than the GCD) allow about a 0.5 second window.

MIGHT that be significant? Considering that's what, even by the narrower definition, slidecasting IS?

EDIT:

Ah, another sample of...
Must be a day that ends in Y.

Oh look, Semi being her normal cheery self. There's a small part of me that wonders if you're related to Titanmen. I know you aren't an alt of his because your post style, but good god you are vindictive because I called you out once for being selfish and hit too close to home, so you can (rarely) pretty much never let it go.

It must be a day ending in Y, as you do never disappoint at your eagerness to join dogpiles on people. It's the fastest way to prove there's an unfair dogpile happening, in fact - if Semi has shown up to join it.

lol, unreal reply, just admit you didn't know what slidecasting is, and that you have no idea about BLM

rofl! I have no intention to lie to aid your ego, my dear troll. Looks like you want to compete with Titanmen for my affection, but he won't propose. Too shy, I suppose. Perhaps you will?
You'll just have to get over being wrong.

On that topic, ironically... As meme as people make BLU to be, I genuinely have more fun healing with it because it comes in reverse of the mainstream healers: you'll spend a good portion of your gcds actually casting healing actions, but you'll get a bunch of strong damaging oGCDs to use between them - you still use damaging gcds, but is more or less "heal>heal>damage>heal>damage>damage>heal>etc".

The point of discontent, to me, is the lack of healing action diversity, but hopefully the update we'll get in about a month and half will improve the kit. Oh, and of course, make tanks less paper wet squishy, because it directly impacts on the healer stress.

Hey, someone actually interested in discussing the topic rather than being a member of the mob. Thanks for being a decent person and actually doing that.

BLU is definitely a different take on it. I kinda wish they'd have BLU available for general content. Won't ever happen, but its take on Healing is certainly distinct from the other Healers, which is something the game needs more of, I think. More diversity of playstyles within the existing roles. And BLU makes it work pretty well with its own unique flavor that is VERY distinct from the other Healers at present.

So which is it now?

Yes or no answers, please:

1) Do you have "about 0.5 sec on a 2.5 sec cast", latency dependent, to move on as a spell completes, or no?
(You might be on about other spells having a similar time, but this also depends on the GCD triggered by the spell, the player's latency, and in any case, doesn't make the above statement untrue.)

2) Can you move significantly farther with a 1.5 or 2.0 sec cast spell without clipping your GCD than with a 2.8 or 3.0 sec cast spell, or no?
(Though there are some weird exceptions to things that alter the GCD itself that they specifically trigger, like RDM's Enchanted melee strikes, which don't even all have the same one as I mentioned before - 1.5, 1.5, 2.2 - or SMN having 1.5, 2.5, 3.0, and 3.5 depending on which phase and which spell...)

3) Is moving in the window between that point (the point you can move without canceling your spell cast, even before the animation goes off) and the next GCD starting slidecasting, or is it not?
(This honestly may be the point of conflict since some people measure slidecasting from the point you can move up until the GCD allows another cast and - apparently - some people only include the half-second and consider the rest of the movement period...something else. Regardless, the whole of that period is what's used for repositioning without losing DPS/clipping the GCD. Which was the entire point of the prior discussion before it was so rudely derailed.)

4) Can BLM function, as a GCD harcasting class, within the current encounter design model that requires high mobility, or is it currently incapable of engaging functionally in current designed content?

5) Given (4), does it stand to reason that a Healer that also used hardcasts and GCD healing could fit within the same mobility model?
(Either with extra movement tools, like BLM has - regardless of what anyone wants to define terms as or how narrowly, BLM does have tools that allow movement, and I'm not sure why anyone would contest a point so factual - or with shorter cast times, which also allow more movement, or a combination of both.)

Note that (5) is the actual topic of discussion before this tangent.

(You're right about Medica 2, though. I guess Holy IS the only WHM spell left that takes up the entire GCD at this point.)

.

Anyway, the topic is what it was, but if no one wants to talk about it, then no point continuing.

[Sebazy]

(You're right about Medica 2, though. I guess Holy IS the only WHM spell left that takes up the entire GCD at this point.)

I forgot to mention it yesterday evening, but Raise is probably a better example.

You've probably had those moments where you're hard casting a raise, a mechanic ground marker targets you but you manage to successfully squeeze out the raise whilst dodging the marker before the raise cast ends? That's slidecasting in it's purest form.

To answer your questions at Rein:

1) Yes for the most part. When the EU servers switched location it changed the timing we needed to use to slide cast, it didn't make as big a difference to the distance we could move mid cast as you might expect, but it did move the window enough to need to adjust a little.

2) Of course, with 1 second cast abilities you barely have to stop moving once you get it down. The window for movement is longer, but I'll also argue that the act of slidecasting primarily describes the point in time at which you are moving whilst you still have a cast bar going, thus slide-casting. Technically, you are not casting whilst moving between casts whilst the GCD is still ticking over.

3) Oop, answered in the above. To repeat. No, slide casting refers to the act of moving whilst you have a cast bar up without actually interrupting or dropping the cast. Moving between casts whilst the GCD is on cooldown isn't technically slide casting, rather that is moving between casts. The goal of slidecasting is to increase the amount of movement you have whilst casting irrespective of the cast time vs GCD. You can slide cast Esuna, Holy or Raise. I guess this is confusing because modern short Glare etc cast times effectively just have the old slide cast window baked in, but that doesn't mean you can't use the old methods to increase that movement window further. It's still a relevant habit, just not quite as critical as it used to be.

4) Of course, watch a replay of a top level BLM playing and you'll see them using slidecasting to adjust their position plenty.

5) I mean BLM has a LOT of mobility tools now, I'd be all for getting a slice of that on healers but I suspect SE gave us shorter cast glares so they wouldn't have to.

As an example, that random Euphrosyne clip I linked a while ago:

https://youtu.be/6usab1LjtYE?t=44

@45 seconds in, shuffling around slidecasting, not entirely sure why, probably out of boredom tbh

[Zairava]

As an answer to the thread title:

2 minute burst window needs to burn in the fire. Plain and simple first point.

DPS: Personally, I think all of the dps play differently enough so that the 2-minute burst window doesn't hinder them as much. This does, however, result in burst windows feeling same-y because everything is crammed into it.

Healers: lol. lmao. All I can do is really preach what most everyone is saying in the Healer forum. They somehow managed to take the role I'm absolutely awful at in mmo's an absolute snoozefest. Adventure Quest Worlds has deeper combat than the healers in this game, and that's a flash player mmo.

Tanks: I could probably write a thesis on this honestly. However, I will try to be fair here with possibly some minor salt.

Warrior) Fulfills its niche greatly. It's simple, it's unga bunga. It's main problem is that it just gets boring. The party healing on this job is way too goddamn high, it has absolutely no right being so potent with no cost to themselves.

Paladin) This is a bit of a mixed bag for me, I miss the old paladin, but the new one is definitely simpler and easier to execute. Goring Blade needs to be something else other than a 60s high potency skill but I can't believe they'll actually modify it. Getting Bulwark back was nice.

Gunbreaker) This is in a pretty great spot for me, honestly. I don't have very many complaints, if any, about it.

Dark Knight) I've already gone on so many tirades since Shadowbringers launch about it, but I'll try to keep this brief. It's entire identity got neutered when they got rid of Dark Arts instead reworking or revamping it, it barely exists in it's current state. Same thing as Darkside, it might as well be a passive or deleted because that UI element is essentially useless as unless you actively try to it isn't going to fall of. Living Shadow is a great chunk of dps and yet it doesn't feel it, since you just press it and forget about it since there's no interaction. Delirium NEEDS to be something else other than a IR clone and our Blood Gauge needs to have more interaction with our kit because otherwise it will continue to be seen as a Warrior clone with more ogcd's to weave.

Balance has been kinda bad, honestly. The 2-minute burst window and crit variance are severe hinderances, and we could do with potency squishes going into 7.0, otherwise it will persist unless they just make all high potency skills auto direct-crit

[Absurdity]

Tanks: I could probably write a thesis on this honestly. However, I will try to be fair here with possibly some minor salt.

Warrior) Fulfills its niche greatly. It's simple, it's unga bunga. It's main problem is that it just gets boring. The party healing on this job is way too goddamn high, it has absolutely no right being so potent with no cost to themselves.

Gunbreaker) This is in a pretty great spot for me, honestly. I don't have very many complaints, if any, about it.

Warrior already fulfilled the niche of being the simple tank after the 4.2 rework, it was easy to understand but gauge management to maximize your bonus critical hit and the limitations to Infuriate left some room for skill expression.

All that 5.0 and 6.0 did was sandblast all remaining nuance out of the job until nothing but a mindnumbing shell remained.


Gunbreaker was in a great spot when it initially released, the 2-cartridge system allowed for excess Burst Strikes between No Mercy windows in case the boss needed repositioning and provided acess to weave slots in the middle of your burst. Endwalker just tacked random additions to the job that made it clunkier as a result.

Double Down didn't need to cost 2 cartridges, it's already limited by it's cooldown, the 3 cartridges just resulted in the job being punished more for downtime where you can't generate resources and Hypervelocity introduced mandatory weaves to an ability that really didn't need them.

It's still "fine" but they didn't really improve upon it's original design besides maybe HoC.

[Zairava]

Warrior already fulfilled the niche of being the simple tank after the 4.2 rework, it was easy to understand but gauge management to maximize your bonus critical hit and the limitations to Infuriate left some room for skill expression.

All that 5.0 and 6.0 did was sandblast all remaining nuance out of the job until nothing but a mindnumbing shell remained.


Gunbreaker was in a great spot when it initially released, the 2-cartridge system allowed for excess Burst Strikes between No Mercy windows in case the boss needed repositioning and provided acess to weave slots in the middle of your burst. Endwalker just tacked random additions to the job that made it clunkier as a result.

Double Down didn't need to cost 2 cartridges, it's already limited by it's cooldown, the 3 cartridges just resulted in the job being punished more for downtime where you can't generate resources and Hypervelocity introduced mandatory weaves to an ability that really didn't need them.

It's still "fine" but they didn't really improve upon it's original design besides maybe HoC.

Yeah. Warrior is my goto when I just want to turn my brain off for a bit. I would like some more skill expression with infuriate with something instead of nascent chaos, I wasn't a fan of it since it's inception. It just feels...off I suppose. I like how lvl 70 WAR feels more because of that.

As for GNB, those points would be my only real complaints, despite actually liking Hypervelocity.

[Absurdity]

Yeah. Warrior is my goto when I just want to turn my brain off for a bit. I would like some more skill expression with infuriate with something instead of nascent chaos, I wasn't a fan of it since it's inception. It just feels...off I suppose. I like how lvl 70 WAR feels more because of that.

Inner Chaos is literally just old Inner Beast but with fancier VFX effects, so I can see why it would feel underwhelming compared to Fell Cleave.

[Shurrikhan]

Warrior already fulfilled the niche of being the simple tank after the 4.2 rework, it was easy to understand but gauge management to maximize your bonus critical hit and the limitations to Infuriate left some room for skill expression.

All that 5.0 and 6.0 did was sandblast all remaining nuance out of the job until nothing but a mindnumbing shell remained.


Gunbreaker was in a great spot when it initially released, the 2-cartridge system allowed for excess Burst Strikes between No Mercy windows in case the boss needed repositioning and provided acess to weave slots in the middle of your burst. Endwalker just tacked random additions to the job that made it clunkier as a result.

Double Down didn't need to cost 2 cartridges, it's already limited by it's cooldown, the 3 cartridges just resulted in the job being punished more for downtime where you can't generate resources and Hypervelocity introduced mandatory weaves to an ability that really didn't need them.

It's still "fine" but they didn't really improve upon it's original design besides maybe HoC.

I still consider HoC a downgrade, design-wise, from HoS simply because its value became that much less timing-dependent, and therefore that much less rewarding.

Hypervelocity I'm fine with. Honestly, Double Down I'm also fine with. I don't particularly like it, but neither do I think it's bad.

If we're having to constrain thematic territory just because some other tank deals with downtime better, then either leverage alternative advantages or fix the outlier.

Or address the mechanic itself in a way that doesn't detract from theme: Do we really need a button that generates immediate ammo on pull to compensate for its being a builder-spender system, vs. just letting GNB generate ammo over time (scaling with GCD speed) and making it therefore a spender-rebuilder system? Would it be so awful to trade Bloodfest instead to an ability that grants Haste and, further, the frequency of ammo generation or that refunds every other ammo spent after it's pressed for a set duration?

Inner Chaos is literally just old Inner Beast but with fancier VFX effects, so I can see why it would feel underwhelming compared to Fell Cleave.

Since they left the XI Upheaval animation still unused, I was kind of hoping at least copy that over for the new single-target Wrath/Beast skill, instead of literally just the-pre-upgraded-animation-but-with-more-yellow-and-orange.

Alas, in XIV, 'minimum effort [=] best [level of] effort'? ???

[SieyaM]

As an answer to the thread title:

2 minute burst window needs to burn in the fire. Plain and simple first point.

While I agree the 2 minutes burst window is definitely hampering design, I don't think it is the only offender just the biggest offender.

[Ivtrix]

While I agree the 2 minutes burst window is definitely hampering design, I don't think it is the only offender just the biggest offender.

combine it with hitboxes so big to the point where melee dont have to disengage from the boss therefore have 0 risk because you can 100% uptime leads to why melee are so strong this expansion

[Shurrikhan]

combine it with hitboxes so big to the point where melee dont have to disengage from the boss therefore have 0 risk because you can 100% uptime leads to why melee are so strong this expansion

Well that and the simple fact that their damage wasn't nerfed despite that reduced vulnerability. Which, admittedly, makes some sense, since no one likes to have their throughput ceiling reduced just because their skill ceiling was, especially given that... no one asked for that reduction to skill ceiling.