Dragon Sight change - Just remove positionals already

[ataren3]

MNK is no longer the positional job it used to be, so it wouldn't make sense for it to keep TN but DRG, which has 50% of its GCDs being positionals.

Just an example. I know shadowbringers monk was absolutely ridiculous with positionals but it sort of made sense to me that the "punchy" class relied on hitting the opponent with the proper positioning did good damage. I'd actually like it if monk had a little more positionals than we do right now just not as insane as it used to be.

[Mikey_R]

Anyone who has played a fighting game or action game would surely agree that positionals are the lowest of low in terms of any kind of "skill" requirement.

What are you smoking? Your position in relation to your opponent/s is a very high level skill to have, especially in fighting games. Knowing your position relative to your opponent is crucial in knowing what you can do, what they can do and as a result, try and predict what they will do to give yourself the advantage. Whilst it is not as crucial in action games, in fighting games, it is absolutely a high level skill that takes a long time to master.

There is one crucial thing that plays into fighting games in regards to your position, and that is anticipation, where/what do you think your opponent is going to go and putting yourself in a spot to best utilise that. The same goes for FFXIV. You need to anticipate where you need to stand before the boss moves. If you need to go clockwise to hit the rear, but you know the boss is about to turn to do a mechanic, go anti-clockwise instead. Encounters are fixed, you know what is coming, so there is no reason you cannot anticipate where the boss is going to be and adjust accordingly, especially in fixed groups where you know where everyone is going to be. it is this skill that I believe most are not playing into when playing melee. They think where they need to go at the time rather than anticipating where they need to go in the future. This is why people like positionals and why it is rewarding to hit them.

Just an example. I know shadowbringers monk was absolutely ridiculous with positionals but it sort of made sense to me that the "punchy" class relied on hitting the opponent with the proper positioning did good damage. I'd actually like it if monk had a little more positionals than we do right now just not as insane as it used to be.

It was originally only going to lose 2 positionals if you look at the media tour info, IIRC it was Raptor form (Twins Snakes/True Strike) but they changed it since then (along with alot of other things across multiple jobs).

[Sqwall]

The whole reason I and many (manily me) were so vocal about MNK having to many positionals...was because it was a shallow attempt at gameplay. It DID make sense in ARR and Heavensward...but it quickly outgrew it's "identity" in Stormblood and Shadowbringers with Endwalker being the nail in the coffin to make room for Blitz (which is WAY better then 4 positionals). Raid content was main cause, Positionals contributed to the problem. Positionals were just the tip of the iceberg for MNK. It seemed nothing endgame was even designed thinking of MNK at all (looking at you shadowbringers anatman, tornado kick, Six Sided Star -- I don't think ANYONE used these skills in shadowbringers).

With the inclusion of True North and eventually 3 charges of Riddle of Earth (which mind you is the most bastardized skill in the game going through I think 5 revisions, to then ultimately be deleted...tells me a lot about how MNK no longer fit the mold come Endwalker)

Truth is... MNK was a round peg....trying to fit in a square hole since Stormblood. And by Shadowbringers the damage was done. By then the players associated that job with "positional" gameplay...and it came with a lot of baggage. Most "elitist" players just log shamed and laughed at me for not being goku level MNK and missing a postionals. Truth is I didn't care...I loved MNK and being the speedy punchy class because... IT WAS FUN! Positionals be damed! I truly felt bad for those that loved it for that one reason, part of me felt bad that they lost something so I could gain some semblance of a more streamlined job.

I constantly go back to the analogy "The ship of Theseus". MNK was designed with positionals in mind back in ARR, of which worked back then. The years seemed to just add things to the job that no longer supported what it was designed to be...the positional job, and it just became this mess of design choices that NOTHING complimented the other. As other jobs were introduced, and better design choices made for those jobs respectively, and non of which given to mnk...it's fate was sealed. MNK was shadow of it's former self, and just a train wreck to play. It had lost it's focus.

MNKs fate was a result of the raid content department NOT communicating with the job design department for nearly 9 years. I would bet dollars to donuts that the dev team will NEVER go back to that type of job design as long as this quest for perfect endgame balance continues.

Blitz system is new and interesting system doesn't require to much thought. Just do your normal rotation and you are granted a large damage bonus, and it's always fun to build up blitz to then unleash that phantom rush. Super satisfying! Way better then using all your Greased Lightning for a Tornado Kick, to then stunt your DPS for 9 GCD's in Shadowbringers. I can't wait to see the additions to Blitz come 7.0.

Will DRG go the same route? Will it become more streamlined for the sake of new and interesting designs? Who knows, but I can't wait to see the changes to DRG...this Dragon Sight is a step in the right direction. And with jobs having less and less positionals more and more....I would NOT be surprised if they finally just got the axe.

[Mikey_R]

The whole reason I and many (manily me) were so vocal about MNK having to many positionals...was because it was a shallow attempt at gameplay. ...

With the inclusion of True North and eventually 3 charges of Riddle of Earth...

Truth is... MNK was a round peg....trying to fit in a square hole since Stormblood. And by Shadowbringers the damage was done. ...

I constantly go back to the analogy "The ship of Theseus". ...

MNKs fate was a result of the raid content department ...

Blitz system is new and interesting system doesn't require to much thought....

Will DRG go the same route? ....

Here is the thing though, there is no reason positionals and Blitzes couldn't co-exist, infact, I would even be fine with the Blitzes being positionless. As for Anatman and SSS and ShB fight designs in general, they didn't inhibit the ability to do positionals, how they hampered Monk was in the upkeep of Greased Lightning, which, in my opinion, WAS an archaic mechanic that was not keeping up with the times. All Monk used to get was different ways to keep GL through longer and longer downtime intervals and so, rather than getting something new, we got more GL maintenance. Come EW when GL is no longer an issue, that is when Blitzes were added. They were no longer shackled to GL and could have more freedom.

As for RoE, the change it give it TN properties was a mistake.

What about losing positionals made Monk more streamlined? I found Monk to be very streamlined with positionals, so I am curious as you why you think it had this effect.

The Ship of Theseus analogy doesn't apply here as that is about replacing a component with the same, newer component and asking the question, if you replace one, 2 maybe a whole section of the boat, you would still call it the same boat, however, if, over time, you replaced everything, is it still the same boat? It looks exactly the same as the original, but there is nothing original about it, so can we call it the same ship? If not, at what point did it stop being the original ship? None of this applies to the state of Monk.

Again, there is no evidence that raid design is being hampered by positionals.

Yes, Blitzes are better than GL by a long shot, doesn't mean positionals had to go though.

As for DRG, I have no idea what they plan and to be honest, I'm not too bothered. It isn't a job I play a lot so i will leave it to the people who DO actually play it to have thoughts on how the want to change it.

However, the question I keep asking over and over has yet to be answered. Why could we NOT have the melees cover the whole spectrum in regards to number of positionals? Have a melee that has none, have some in the middle, have one with loads. Everyone should be satisfied then as there will be a job for everyone.

[Taranok]

Again, there is no evidence that raid design is being hampered by positionals.

The evidence is the fight design itself and what the devs can and have accomplished. Specifically, P9S is a very boring, very static fight. P10S is a very dynamic and arguably interesting fight. Having to work around positionals in P9S is tedious and doesn't really have any impact on my DPS outside of the boss randomly rotating because of bad tank movement, but the in/out mechanic with a front/back and several positions to dodge from cracks actually is interesting, especially since you can greed with max melee, but you have to be very careful about it. Everything else? Oh look, I just true north almost every mechanic because it's up. For everything. Woo, such riveting design.

Like, we can argue over split hairs. I'd say P10S is the perfect example of the garbage fight design for casters, but as a melee I've enjoyed it a hell of a lot more while progging than P9S. P1S and P2S, kind of the same thing. 1 was boring (admittedly I was a red mage,) 2 was a lot more interesting.

Nothing about P4S, both phase 1 and 2, individually or collectively, was truly that interesting compared to P2S. Same thing with P8SP1 versus P2. Actually, P8SP1 is arguably one of the worst designed fights since it simultaneously did nothing new or interesting, positionals added nothing to the fight, and it still screwed over casters. We can throw in P7S, but that had a handful of interesting mechanics and, for some reason, the devs put them back to back right at the end of the fight.

Simply put, of all the fights in Endwalker I have done, despite them all being garbage for casters almost entirely, the fights without positionals have all done vastly more interesting things than the fights with positional mechanics. Even if you just look at how often you need to move to handle a mechanic, the required times you have to run around the arena to do something is vastly, vastly greater on fights without positionals.

When the devs have to design fights around melee existing, they assume there can be up to 2 melee DPS, and the devs go out of their way to expect DPS to have a static spot on the corner of the boss, and then design the boss to stay near the middle of the arena, constantly facing north, constantly giving melee these positionals. When freed of this requirement, the devs are allowed to, you know, do interesting things with the boss, like jump around the arena, shape the arena, and in general restrict movement. Which the devs have been doing a lot of in Endwalker.

To me, the boss jumping around is a hell of a lot more interesting than players running across the arena, and they can enable this style of gameplay if the devs remove positionals from the game. Hell, I like coming back to it because it's probably one of the actually best designed fights in the entire game. Neo-Exdeath. Between jumping around the arena, line cleaves between in and out, forced melee downtime, things for ranged DPS to need to do with movement. Even casters being forced to stack and move. It all made for a very well balanced fight for all roles. And, you know, it had no positional requirements.

[Shurrikhan]

The evidence is the fight design itself and what the devs can and have accomplished. Specifically, P9S is a very boring, very static fight. P10S is a very dynamic and arguably interesting fight.

But, again, in what way does that have to do with positionals? Looking at the results of myriad factors and then saying that all but one point in difference must be irrelevant isn't terribly convincing, especially given that we've had even more intricate fights than P10S that nonetheless had positional and show no signs of having been constrained by them.

We've had positional bosses, for instance "jump around the arena, shape the arena, and in general restrict movement". What we see far less often is non-positional bosses being anywhere but on one side of a massive rectangle, being punchable practically from outer space.

[Arohk]

Positionals are okay, but bosses constantly turning in different directions for mechanics is not.

[Mikey_R]

When the devs have to design fights around melee existing, they assume there can be up to 2 melee DPS, and the devs go out of their way to expect DPS to have a static spot on the corner of the boss, and then design the boss to stay near the middle of the arena, constantly facing north, constantly giving melee these positionals. When freed of this requirement, the devs are allowed to, you know, do interesting things with the boss, like jump around the arena, shape the arena, and in general restrict movement. Which the devs have been doing a lot of in Endwalker.

Bosses do already jump around the arena, positionals doesn't stop this. Look at the second boss of Aetherfont as an example. If you want to talk about trials, then have you thought that there are other issues with a boss jumping around all the time? One of them being, it's just annoying, positionals or not, if a boss jumps around too much, it is just annoying.

Changing the shape of the arena, P12/P12S1 change the shape of the arena, the boss still has positionals. Changing the arena shape doesn't restrict the use of positionals. The same goes for restricting the arena. It doesn't stop positionals. Plenty of mechanics restrict movement and still have positionals and they aren't hindered by them.

There is also the fact you don't seem to have an issue with bosses that sit on the outside of the arena. You might prefer that fight design, I don't know, however it is worth noting that because the dynamic between boss and arena is different, they have the potential to do different things in the fight. This, again, has nothing to do with positionals.

The only fight you listed that you can even compare to the majority of other fights is P2 and P2S, however, at no point do you say WHY you prefer the fight. What is it about the fight that you like and more importantly, why would positionals make the fight less enjoyable, if you assume it did have them. To be clear, just saying the boss restricts movement to a hollow square therefore positionals are bad isn't a good argument. You can still have positionals in that scenario.

And to touch on True North, I assume you have no issues with Swiftcast, Triplecast and Dualcast as well as the myriad of instant cast spells? Well, these are the caster equivalent to True North, you use them to aid yourself in dealing with mechanics, which is the same as True North allowing you to ignore positionals.

And lastly, noone has answered this question:

Why could we NOT have the melees cover the whole spectrum in regards to number of positionals? Have a melee that has none, have some in the middle, have one with loads. Everyone should be satisfied then as there will be a job for everyone.

[wereotter]

Just an example. I know shadowbringers monk was absolutely ridiculous with positionals but it sort of made sense to me that the "punchy" class relied on hitting the opponent with the proper positioning did good damage. I'd actually like it if monk had a little more positionals than we do right now just not as insane as it used to be.

Shadowbringers monk was great. The job had a sense of urgency and the continual movement to hit positionals made the job feel even more busy and fast paced. This expansion, with the elimination of greased lightning and that you just sit on the boss's flank except for every three rotations when you move to reapply Demolish, the job is so hollow and boring. Blitzes are a good start to giving the job something more to do, but just playing a ninjutsu style button game every 60 seconds just isn't enough.

I love monk... but I've had a really hard time getting into and enjoying it after how they ruined it this expansion. Dragoon doesn't need to go down this path. The people who have been arguing for the removal of positionals now have multiple melee jobs that barely have to consider them. Dragoon can keep them.

[zeth07]

What are you smoking? Your position in relation to your opponent/s is a very high level skill to have, especially in fighting games. Knowing your position relative to your opponent is crucial in knowing what you can do, what they can do and as a result, try and predict what they will do to give yourself the advantage. Whilst it is not as crucial in action games, in fighting games, it is absolutely a high level skill that takes a long time to master.

There is one crucial thing that plays into fighting games in regards to your position, and that is anticipation, where/what do you think your opponent is going to go and putting yourself in a spot to best utilise that. The same goes for FFXIV. You need to anticipate where you need to stand before the boss moves. If you need to go clockwise to hit the rear, but you know the boss is about to turn to do a mechanic, go anti-clockwise instead. Encounters are fixed, you know what is coming, so there is no reason you cannot anticipate where the boss is going to be and adjust accordingly, especially in fixed groups where you know where everyone is going to be. it is this skill that I believe most are not playing into when playing melee. They think where they need to go at the time rather than anticipating where they need to go in the future. This is why people like positionals and why it is rewarding to hit them.

Nice job taking what I said out of context, or at least ignoring the context entirely.

Surely you are not about to compare hitting positionals in FFXIV (moving 1mm left/right) to the same thing as footsies or screen spacing in fighting games? I hope you can clearly understand the distinction between the two when I talk about the "skill" required to play these games by comparison, and not taking what I say out of context or misunderstanding it. That would be a terrible look...But yes your explanation would more or less be proving my point if you didn't misunderstand what I was saying. Or at least the reason I was saying it.

You say that it's the same in FFXIV, but it's not. When those situations come up, you literally have buttons to press that let you ignore the situation. Which again, I brought up....Which invalidates the entire point of the positionals as a mechanic being a challenge when the "skill" of performing them is to in fact know when you don't need to do them by pressing a single button.

If anything I would point out how hard fighting games are as perceived by new players and why developers are always so invested in making them easier for more casuals players to get into, which still doesn't account for actual fighting game fundamentals such as spacing...Which is more or less the complete opposite of how FFXIV is perceived, rightfully so, because it's already so welcoming to new players and they are STILL making adjustments so there is less of a skill gap.

The difference in physically/mentally playing a job in FFXIV (NOT the fight mechanics) is nothing compared to learning/playing a fighting game character in terms of execution required.