war out tanking pld?

[SwordCoheir]

Doesn't help that WAR got access to all of GLA/PLD's hate grabbing moves (save Wardrum) on top of Antagonize and Collusion. Even sadder that vengance actually gave them more damage mitigation than PLD's got.

If it weren't for the 1.21a patch PLD wouldn't have gotten anything remotely defensive outside of their 2hr.

[HiirNoivl]

Doesn't help that WAR got access to all of GLA/PLD's hate grabbing moves (save Wardrum) on top of Antagonize and Collusion. Even sadder that vengance actually gave them more damage mitigation than PLD's got.

If it weren't for the 1.21a patch PLD wouldn't have gotten anything remotely defensive outside of their 2hr.

WAR only got TWO hate grabbing moves from PLD... and they don't work as well on WAR. If you actually knew how to play PLD, you would know how superior a tank it is...

Seriously... learn how to play PLD. -.-

[Raikki]

WAR only got TWO hate grabbing moves from PLD... and they don't work as well on WAR. If you actually knew how to play PLD, you would know how superior a tank it is...

Seriously... learn how to play PLD. -.-

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true no matter how much I wish it were. The damage output difference will never be accounted for without a lot more mitigation and self-heal capability than PLD has right now. "I tank just fine on PLD" isn't enough to sell your claim. Even "I take less damage on PLD" doesn't cut it. You have to show that you're measurably more efficient in a party than a WAR tank, and it just isn't true right now.

[SwordCoheir]

WAR only got TWO hate grabbing moves from PLD... and they don't work as well on WAR. If you actually knew how to play PLD, you would know how superior a tank it is...

Seriously... learn how to play PLD. -.-

Geeze, not tryin to get into some contest of which is a superior tank or not, and I'm well aware of the sub-classing differences which ultimately fall down too lack of trait boosts. I am saying even with reduced potency GLA abilities however, WAR got their own equivilant options on top of the ones PLD got handed down from GLA, ultimately giving WAR more tanking options along with superior DPS. But if you'd like to discuss schematics and differences between JA's on each of the jobs, I'll be more than happy to write out the comparisons.

[NickZenith]

Parse war dmg vs pld on a single target boss... You'll be relatively surprised

[Alerith]

Parse war dmg vs pld on a single target boss... You'll be relatively surprised

I don't have a parser. Could you post a screen of said parse?

[HiirNoivl]

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true no matter how much I wish it were. The damage output difference will never be accounted for without a lot more mitigation and self-heal capability than PLD has right now. "I tank just fine on PLD" isn't enough to sell your claim. Even "I take less damage on PLD" doesn't cut it. You have to show that you're measurably more efficient in a party than a WAR tank, and it just isn't true right now.

Meh. I don't care that much. Eventually, you'll understand what I mean. Self-heal... yeah it would be nice if I never needed WHM again, but just because I need a WHM to keep me alive doesn't mean that PLD is not a better tank than WAR. The whole point of Tanking to to keep the mob away from the other party members so they can DPS freely. Just because WAR is a better DPS than PLD does not make it the better tank. WAR is sloooooow to get hate and it's harder to keep hate on WAR.

On PLD I have a huge hate boost every 20 seconds. And even though I don't have a huge DPS number myself, Defense Down boosts the DPS of the entire party.

Btw can someone tell me what the party members receive for cures with Divine Veil on? I'm still looking for that information.

[Raikki]

The whole point of Tanking to to keep the mob away from the other party members so they can DPS freely. Just because WAR is a better DPS than PLD does not make it the better tank. WAR is sloooooow to get hate and it's harder to keep hate on WAR.

This hasn't been my experience. Extra damage equals extra enmity, and proper use of Collusion (and Antagonize) makes a big difference. If you're struggling with enmity on WAR I don't think you're playing it right. When you can "keep the mobs away from the other party members" and deal significant damage at the same time, it's a no-brainer.

[Dzian]

a huge problem with paladin is alot of it is reactive. you can't wardrum/or combo spirits within without a shield block which means that if you lose/dont have hate it's automatically harder to reclaim it.

with a warrior you just need to land a decent hit and hate is back on you. it's so much easier.

and that in turn affects the rest of a party. always feels like dds need to me carefull and conservative when playing with a paladin with a typical slow and steady approach paying more attention to hate than doing there job. with a warrior tank you can pretty much ignore the hate box altogether and just get on with the task at hand. if you do pull hate only takes a second for a war to claim it back.

what i'd like to see is some kind of fix that enables a paladin to regen mp at a decent rate. along with a defensive buff that actually mitigates a noticable amount of damage. that makes them less dependant on healers to survive.

if you put paladin in a position where you could for example put 1 pld 1 whm 6 dds vs ifrit. as opposed 2 1 war 2 whms and 5dds i think then you have a point of balance. but at present a plds mp pool just doesnt make it viable.

is it possible at present? sure.
But is it a lot more difficult to make work than a war 2 whms and 5dds? yes it is.
which kind of suggests you have to go out of your way to make it viable.

think at present i'd go so far as to say a blm using sanguin rite has more damage mitigation than a paladin does with sentinal/rampart.

don't get me wrong i love my paladin. i don't love the laughs whenever anyone suggests using one. be it mine or anyone elses.

[HiirNoivl]

This hasn't been my experience. Extra damage equals extra enmity, and proper use of Collusion (and Antagonize) makes a big difference. If you're struggling with enmity on WAR I don't think you're playing it right. When you can "keep the mobs away from the other party members" and deal significant damage at the same time, it's a no-brainer.

The only reason WAR needs Collusion is because it can't generate it's own hate and has to siphon hate off of others, hate that they shouldn't have in the first place.. Collusion has a 90 second recast time as well and during that 90 seconds, it's unlikely that I'll have much else help on enmity besides DPS because I have to spam the other hate generating moves in my first attempt to try and grab hate while the rest of the party sits and twiddles their thumbs...

When I'm on PLD the rest of the party doesn't have to "watch their hate" they don't have to hold back their spells. They can nuke and curebomb all they like. When I'm on PLD I don't have to load up on Enmity + materia and accessories like I do on WAR. Heck, I can die in the middle of a moogle fight and then get raised and get all the hate back on all the moogles. If I die as a WAR tank, it's a wipe. I hate tanking on WAR, absolutely hate it, because of this and other reasons. It's just a lousy tank, and often times I get people who want to push me to tank with it just because everyone else is doing it.

a huge problem with paladin is alot of it is reactive. you can't wardrum/or combo spirits within without a shield block which means that if you lose/dont have hate it's automatically harder to reclaim it.

Sentinal + Flash or Provoke should be enough to reclaim any mob. It's is a lot of button mashing (Aegis Boon + Phalanx + War Drum). Bah. They do need to make it easier. I never have a problem with MP pool though. We usually have a BRD in the party.... to be fair WAR doesn't have much HP regen either. At least PLD can cure the party with Divine Veil (which I try to keep on as much as possible.) and I nom on some Apkallu Omelette before we go in. Anyways, I have so much of an easier time with PLD than WAR (even with Accuracy Buffs to help me LAND what I hit on WAR we haven't even gotten to the lousy accuracy.)

Maybe I'm doing it wrong with WAR, but I see no reason to learn how to use it when PLD is just as good even if you don't think it's better.