war out tanking pld?

[HiirNoivl]

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true no matter how much I wish it were. The damage output difference will never be accounted for without a lot more mitigation and self-heal capability than PLD has right now. "I tank just fine on PLD" isn't enough to sell your claim. Even "I take less damage on PLD" doesn't cut it. You have to show that you're measurably more efficient in a party than a WAR tank, and it just isn't true right now.

Meh. I don't care that much. Eventually, you'll understand what I mean. Self-heal... yeah it would be nice if I never needed WHM again, but just because I need a WHM to keep me alive doesn't mean that PLD is not a better tank than WAR. The whole point of Tanking to to keep the mob away from the other party members so they can DPS freely. Just because WAR is a better DPS than PLD does not make it the better tank. WAR is sloooooow to get hate and it's harder to keep hate on WAR.

On PLD I have a huge hate boost every 20 seconds. And even though I don't have a huge DPS number myself, Defense Down boosts the DPS of the entire party.

Btw can someone tell me what the party members receive for cures with Divine Veil on? I'm still looking for that information.

[Raikki]

The whole point of Tanking to to keep the mob away from the other party members so they can DPS freely. Just because WAR is a better DPS than PLD does not make it the better tank. WAR is sloooooow to get hate and it's harder to keep hate on WAR.

This hasn't been my experience. Extra damage equals extra enmity, and proper use of Collusion (and Antagonize) makes a big difference. If you're struggling with enmity on WAR I don't think you're playing it right. When you can "keep the mobs away from the other party members" and deal significant damage at the same time, it's a no-brainer.

[HiirNoivl]

This hasn't been my experience. Extra damage equals extra enmity, and proper use of Collusion (and Antagonize) makes a big difference. If you're struggling with enmity on WAR I don't think you're playing it right. When you can "keep the mobs away from the other party members" and deal significant damage at the same time, it's a no-brainer.

The only reason WAR needs Collusion is because it can't generate it's own hate and has to siphon hate off of others, hate that they shouldn't have in the first place.. Collusion has a 90 second recast time as well and during that 90 seconds, it's unlikely that I'll have much else help on enmity besides DPS because I have to spam the other hate generating moves in my first attempt to try and grab hate while the rest of the party sits and twiddles their thumbs...

When I'm on PLD the rest of the party doesn't have to "watch their hate" they don't have to hold back their spells. They can nuke and curebomb all they like. When I'm on PLD I don't have to load up on Enmity + materia and accessories like I do on WAR. Heck, I can die in the middle of a moogle fight and then get raised and get all the hate back on all the moogles. If I die as a WAR tank, it's a wipe. I hate tanking on WAR, absolutely hate it, because of this and other reasons. It's just a lousy tank, and often times I get people who want to push me to tank with it just because everyone else is doing it.

a huge problem with paladin is alot of it is reactive. you can't wardrum/or combo spirits within without a shield block which means that if you lose/dont have hate it's automatically harder to reclaim it.

Sentinal + Flash or Provoke should be enough to reclaim any mob. It's is a lot of button mashing (Aegis Boon + Phalanx + War Drum). Bah. They do need to make it easier. I never have a problem with MP pool though. We usually have a BRD in the party.... to be fair WAR doesn't have much HP regen either. At least PLD can cure the party with Divine Veil (which I try to keep on as much as possible.) and I nom on some Apkallu Omelette before we go in. Anyways, I have so much of an easier time with PLD than WAR (even with Accuracy Buffs to help me LAND what I hit on WAR we haven't even gotten to the lousy accuracy.)

Maybe I'm doing it wrong with WAR, but I see no reason to learn how to use it when PLD is just as good even if you don't think it's better.

[SwordCoheir]

*Stuff*

Umm, don't take this the wrong way because I'm not judging your skill based on what you said, but it doesn't make much sense for ANY tank to NOT use ALL the tools available to them weather or not they need the help controlling hate and reducing damage. Even if I'm not having hate issues I still spam flash on PLD and voke on WAR due to their blind/atk.down effects and I still use Sentinel and Rampart religiously for defensive purposes, Collusion if anything just let's melee/nukers get a little wilder DPSing without fear getting hate which is always good IMO.

And FYI I play both jobs quite a bit and rarely have the need to use Collusion outside of maybe keeping BLM's alive when they cast AoEs on large groups of weak mobs, so please don't assume I'm dependent on the ability.


King Mog fight is actually a poor example for hate control because it's wonky to begin with, I speak from vast experience with both the King and Wiskerwall where I can on BRD/ARC, die, get back up and go back to binding them, and still randomly get hate regardless of how many times the PLD/GLA Flash/Vokes him or the massive enmity the WHMs have built up curing.