Did Zenos ruin Endwalker

[CelestiCer]

At the end of everything... " Kaiten removal ruined Endwalker for me!! "

[GTK0HLK]

As some have said..,
which I felt needed more highlighting.

If we had been given "Stormblood II: advance on garlemald", which tbh, the trailer was kinda a bait on switch/nod to their original plans(whilst hiding the true intent in sight. with the Eitherys nations finally being able to act out in their expected capabilities)

They also felt like avoiding a reception to a Sb-II.
Which like Jojoya said, it all just amplified the need to tie up the (Hydaelyn/Zodiark) Arc.
[It's like how some people compared JW, with KB. One had two more films, but needed to be Shortened due to unknowing if the material was enough. Whilst the other was extended into two films due to the screen time growing excessive of one film.]

[Hope whatever Worldline/Alt Universe, where we are setting up for Meteion after advancing into Garlemald had a good run of it, and a generally positive view. If they even had Ishikawa spawn meteion in her mind that is. Let alone the Void Chapters with the 13th, or all that we may have enjoyed in our world. But couldn't tell atm. ]

[I'll just turn my post back towards Zenos and reiterate my view on his role.

His memories and Bodies as a prince are long gone. Unfortunately left behind for those who wanted to drag the body back to the ship. But who knows what the remaining Fragments in the other shards are like. Since Zenos of the source is Half-ancient Half-Fragmented Source Dweller.

(edit:100% Resonant Viator)

Unless Hades pulled a Zeus in the other shards.
We'll see, but definitely will never rise again as the prince we used to know. Even if their Odd Aether Signature does show up reborn.]

[Hurlstone]

Ill die on the hill that I think Stormblood is better then Heavensward.
And for me the Crown is still Shadowbringers.

But every expansion has something to like about it, even 2.0: ARR or even the currently criticized Endwalker
Nothing is perfect, but there is always a Diamond in the rough
--Individual Experiences may vary--

100% this. I remember finishing Heavensward and thinking... "That was it? Like its alright, but..." I think the 3.x patches where much better. Stormblood I was very surprised to see people say it was the worst. I enjoyed it more then HW, its cast has some of my favorite NPCs (Sadu, Hien, Fordola, Asahi ect) and Azim Steppe is my second favorite zone in the game. It may even overtake Endwalker as my second fav in time. Like you say though, individual experiences may vary, and the subjectivity of fiction is one of my favourite things about it.

[Payotz]

I do think there's also merit to your point about the stakes. They definitely weren't universal at that juncture, but I still thought they were pretty high.

I thought about this for a bit and I think it has something to do with the fact that there's baseline stakes for each expansion, and the fact that the first x0-x5 levels of MSQ are pretty much just world building.

Like ARR and post-ARR is just worldbuilding and the whole team is that "we're a meticulous shadow organization", so the slow and steady approach to things fit with the theme. The Company of Heroes quests were basically us asking for help for Titan, the Cartaneau Stone Vigil quests were us dealing with Ishgardian red tape. It all kinda made sense in the grand scheme of things.

Heavensward was pretty much the same. We couldn't afford to rush forward head first because we were the first outsiders in Ishgard in a very long time, and Eorzea was hunting us down. So the slow and steady approach to things kinda did make sense at the first half. The Matoya cave one also made sense just because of how eccentric the old girl was.

Stormblood was pretty much the same. We were doing covert ops under Garlemald territory, and the moment we actually tried to rush, we got our shit kicked in and we were pursued by Garlemald ever since. So it's pretty much Heavensward redux where we're begging for help from the locals since we didn't really have an army.

I think that all fell apart in Shadowbringers and Endwalker precisely because we were essentially worshipped in Shadowbringers and the Endwalker was literally about the end of the world.

Like Kholusia made sense since we were still doing covert ops. Ahm Areng kinda made sense because we were helping Alisae protect vulnerable people. Both places were essentially world-building for the first, and to establish stakes, cause we didn't really know about the world at all.

What didn't really make sense is what comes after that. Urianger and Y'shtola not having any pull with the Fae and the Viera kinda didn't really make sense in my head. Like Y'shtola literally burnt down entire outposts in the cinematic, so why didn't her influence extend towards the Viera? Urianger was the same, but I do kinda understand it since it's the Fae, but at the same time, I really thought Urianger can just pull some strings since he has lived with them for a couple of years and survived.

Like it genuinely feels like Urianger and Y'shtola portions of ShB wasn't really covert ops. They're both influential leaders of their respective factions and it rubbed me the wrong way when even they couldn't make us bypass the chores.

I'll just skip the Talon minecart section cause you know how I feel about it.

Endwalker as a whole shouldn't really have chores at all for the Eorzea portions. I can understand Sharlayan letting us run around and handle red tape sure, but not really Thavnair. It's the end of the world and it happens in the Source, so surely our name should have had merit in us bypassing everything. Like I could understand if there were chores in Elpis and Garlemald just because it was essentially the same themes as the "covert ops" bit, with us kinda being a "fake familiar" in Elpis and being peace corps in Garlemald, but the bunny moon part was just us sampling food, and clothes and stuff that really should've been their own reputation quests.

Idk. I think Shadowbringers and Endwalker kinda put us on the spotlight where we kinda shouldn't be doing meaningless intern work when the situation demands us to hold W and save the world. The intern and meticulous stuff made sense when were just the Scions and nobody knew who we were, or if we're actually being sneaky behind enemy lines, but it doesn't really make sense when we are literally worshipped as legends.

[Gemina]

Have him hunt down and kill everyone precious to the WoL since the body possessing thing adds the possessed's memories as shown by Lahabrea in ARR.

He was on his way to do that in Garlemald. The WoL stopped him despite occupying another body and having the odds heavily turned against them.

Take Zodiark's power for himself after Fandaniel is killed. Hell, change history so that he unwillingly becomes Zodiark's core after deciding to wipe out mankind to have his fight with the WoL on a mountain of corpses.

He planned on doing this as well prior to Fandaniel taking Zodiark for himself. Zenos planned on taking everything away from the WoL because he wanted their unbridled rage turned on him as they fought on a pile of ashes. Remember? If this actually came to fruition, there wouldn't much of a game left to play.

Not have a solo instance that unlike Varis doesn't even get an Extreme version that could have acted as a gateway to an exploratory zone.

This fight was always going to end in a solo instance, and because it is MSQ the difficulty wasn't going to be road blocker. You don't have to like it, but Zenos being an 8-man encounter doesn't fit the narrative that was set for his character. That was the Shinryu encounter back in SB.

Do something with the fact that he's the grandson of a damn Ancient. Add the damn side story to the game like everything else they should have as A) I ain't reading all that otherwise as it doesn't matter and B) it would have salvaged him at least.

Again. Like what? It is perfectly fine that how well Zenos was done as a character is subjective. No one is going to get anywhere trying to convince those who hate him to like him, and those who like him to hate him. And they actually did do something, now that I think about it. His grandfather built Garlemald and the imperial army. The grandson reduced it to ash. Both happen off screen.

[Gemina]

Nah I emphasized the right word.
Not my fault you don't like what I'm saying.

Edit: More to the point, you seem to be (funnily enough) missing the point of using those characters as examples of how Zenos is a 'good foil.'
Smith, Sabertooth, Zod, and Sasuke are all four their own entity.
Neo, Wolverine, Superman, and Naruto are all four their own entity.
When each character is foiled against their counterpart, taking into account each character's own life experiences, beliefs, and motivations.

The Warrior of Light is an empty puppet whose motivations are entirely up to the individual player that controls their particular iteration of the WoL, regardless of what the writers try and rewrite in after the fact.
When you say Zenos is a foil, you are saying this in regards to your Warrior of Light. Your interpretation of the character, and your motivations inserted into them. Which does not apply to all WoLs.

The motivations of the WoL doesn't change the deeds he or she has accomplished throughout the MSQ, or the feelings that the supporting characters have towards them. These are not invalidated simply because you say so. That isn't how it works. Besides, YOU are the one that said Zenos was a foil. I simply just agreed with you.

[Renathras]

I'll bite a bit.

I don't think Zenos ruined Endwalker. I think a lot of people really like him, and enjoyed seeing his conclusion (please god, let that be his conclusion). I'll admit, him showing up and having a couple of the best quotes in the expansion doesn't hurt as well:

"I assume this is your prey. But why does it still live? Surely it is no match for you"

"I would have thought you to be above something so banal as despair. Am I mistaken?"

Especially after 20 hours of "oh woe is us", having him just laugh it off was pretty funny.

Agreed.

I thought in SB he was a boring Saturday morning cartoon villain (you fight him, HAVE to beat him or the solo duty fails, but then he just beats you in a cutscene; until he merges with a super powerful Primal dragon, and only THEN can you beat him? really?), but in EW, they actually made his character what they SHOULD HAVE in SB. He had nuance - you don't have to like it, but he DID - and his positions were such that they made sense in a very nihilistic way - and there are people that ARE that nihilistic. The conclusion was the best part, though. When everyone's down and the situation seems hopeless, he basically flies to the end of the universe and shatters the wall of a pocket dimension to come in and ask you why you haven't already killed the final boss. Dude's like "You kill gods and stuff, why is this thing still alive, man?". I wasn't expecting ZENOS of all people to come in and be my personal cheerleader, but the best part is: It was totally in character.

The final fight with him - again, some people hated it, some people loved it - but was completely in character and closed out his story. For a man who wants nothing but to fight an equal and face death, battling to the death at the edge of existence with that infinite plane and distant sun as backdrop is the way to go.

As a person who hated Zenos in SB and the bits of him in ShB, I thought EW is what he should have been all along and was like "WHERE WAS THIS FOR THE LAST TWO EXPANSIONS?!", and the conclusion was great.

.

No, Zenos did NOT ruin EW, and EW wasn't "ruined" at all. I do agree with Payotz, though, that there were pacing issues. The worst offender was Labyrinthos at the end of the game before going to Ultima Thul. That was the only place I felt the pacing was SUPER jarring and just completely conflicted with the narrative at the time that we were racing against the clock to save the world/universe.

[Gemina]

I think you are missing a very simple point on why these comparisons dont work: agent smith / sabertooth / zod / sasuke / etc. actually actively try to kill their counteparts.

Then we have Zenos. Stormblood Zenos was actually well received because he was actually menacing and the first villain to put the WoL in his/her place. Then Shadowbringers comes and Zenos just keeps... hanging around doing nothing? and Endwalker comes and he keeps hanging doing nothing again? Also even when he had the easy chance to kill the WoL he dont do it cos "I want muh battle with you bro".

I swear at any time I just wanted to give him his damm battle so he stop being a pain in the arse.

Villains having golden opportunities to kill the protagonist is not uncommon. In fact we see this all the time in comics, anime, movies, books, etc. While Zenos has every intention of killing the WoL, it is a grand battle that he seeks. So if the WoL isn't at their peak, and not coming at Zenos with their all to bare, then he cannot have the battle he wants. As far what he is doing while the WoL is busy with their endeavors? Who knows. We know that he tells us that he continues to hone his blade until the time for their rematch comes. That is all we know, and because of his sole motivation, that is all we need to know.

A villain like Emet is different because we know that what he wants is the rejoining, to bring the world that was stripped of him back. "Perfection", as he puts it and the resurrection of his fallen God. His target is not the WoL specifically, but the WoL is standing in his way. These kind of motivations do not belong to Zenos. It was more in his character to foil the plans of his father because he wasn't going to allow something like the Black Rose take his prey from him, and by doing so he essentially prevented the 8th calamity from ever taken place. Then in his efforts to get his match with the WoL, he also has a major hand in stopping Meteion and the Final Days. Zenos shifts entirely away from the antagonist role, but still remains a villain. Like I told the last poster, you don't have to like it and I'm not going to try and make someone like Zenos who doesn't. I'm just explaining my PoV on things. That is all.

[Carin-Eri]

No. And I, in fact, agree with this post from Reddit:

[Renathras]

Villains having golden opportunities to kill the protagonist is not uncommon. In fact we see this all the time in comics, anime, movies, books, etc. While Zenos has every intention of killing the WoL, it is a grand battle that he seeks. So if the WoL isn't at their peak, and not coming at Zenos with their all to bare, then he cannot have the battle he wants.

It's basically like the Joker in Batman. Crazy different quality of writing across all the various Batman comic runs and cartoon episodes, but here and there they really do him right and focus on his character and his relationship with Batman. How, to the Joker, Bruce Wayne is the mask. How the Joker KNOWS Batman is Bruce Wayne but won't ever tell anyone, because that's not the game to him. The game to him is matching wits with "The Bat", trying to get Batman to break character, even trying to get Batman to break his own rule and kill the Joker. One disturbing comic has him take Batman and the Bat family where he's got all their faces wrapped in bandages and their faces cut off their skulls (the skin) and sitting in a pot on the table in front of Bruce, causing him to think that he literally cut of their faces (something that happened to the Joker in this timeline/comic run. But then (spoiler alert) it's revealed that those were just masks he threw into the boiling pot and all the Bat family (and their faces) were okay, because the Joker's goal wasn't to actually harm them, it was to win his personal game with Bruce. Joker has even saved Batman from death (more than once) because he wants to be the one that defeats Batman. And he doesn't want to just kill him - as he's had ample opportunity - he wants to BEAT him.

It's one of the things that makes the Joker, when written well, an interesting and multifaceted villain across the Batman multiverse, since his motivation isn't just "get lots of money" or "get lots of power" or "kill Batman". And even with the vastly different quality the character has been written at over the better part of a century at this point, it's been pretty consistent across all his incarnations, including when he broke Superman instead in Injustice.

Zenos is like that.

His motivation isn't "kill the WoL" or "make the WoL suffer". His motivation is "good fite" since he feels completely meaningless otherwise in the world and his life. All his actions after his resurrection (and arguably before it) are consistently in service to this objective. And, interestingly, he DOES have a tiny bit of character growth - when Alisaie says he won't listen but the only way to actually get what he wants is to actually help people for a change, it actually gets through to him. Even if selfish, he's not stupid, and when he realizes she's right, he does that very thing. He even DOES show more intelligence and rationality than most when he points out himself that his evil and cruelty would be no less evil and cruel if he "had a good reason" for it, piercing what is often an irrational delusion people have that evil actions might somehow be less evil (or less harmful) if they have have a good reason behind them. Ironically, Zenos does a quicker and more moral takedown of faux morality than basically anyone, and does so in such a dismissive, offhanded way to point out JUST HOW faux it is.

Like the Joker, he's a character that sees the thin veneer of his reality more truly than most. But unlike the WoL and Scions, whose answer to this is hope, his own answer is nihilism; distinct from Meteon's despair, but occupying a similar domain of "not evil for the sake of it". In a way, it makes him a better villain than most, since his objective isn't just to be a bad guy for the hell of it.

.

Note: I'm not saying he was the best and most perfect villain of all time.

But I am saying he's better than a lot of those we've had in MMOs and fiction. His SB era incarnation was pretty crap, but EW made him into an actual character AND did so in a way that made his prior showings still in character, leading to a consistency. And his end was a good and fitting resolution for him.

He was a fine character for what he was, and I hope we never see him again as his end was what it should be.

EDIT:

No. And I, in fact, agree with this post from Reddit:

Not completely, but I do mostly agree as well.