TOP cleared with no healers

[Rehayem]

In any case, unless I'm reading the link incorrectly, that's showing an EU link with stats for Aion for 2023, in which the stats are fairly meaningless- it's a dead game at this point.

I would agree with Zephr that early on no one had a clue what chanters were good for, and until they got some well deserved class adjustments they a horrid time in PVP. However, depending upon the point in time we're talking about geared clerics were definitely in demand for PVP and were in demand for PVE as well. For PVE clerics definitely had their statics and it wasn't unusual for them to get geared by legions- we had dedicated legion runs for - Besh HM, Padmarashka first clear (that I was in) , boss camping (Omega, Ragnarok,), fort ownership, that would not have been possible without dedicated geared clerics and chanters.

Honestly, gearing in Aion was a total nightmare. With classic releasing, I've played for 3 weeks, realizing that while I hold much love for that game and the memories I made, it's not a game I can fully commit myself to anymore. FFXIV has lots of issues that can be solved, but at least when I played Cleric in Aion, I was actually healing, not spamming 1 dps button for 20 minutes. The issues here are fundamental at best, and one can hope some "good" changes might come in 7.0, but that's just me breathing in copium at this point.

[angienessyo]

Healers and tanks is the least played role in every mmo, it's not just an ffxiv thing..
There will always be more players who play dps than tank/heal..
So it's not uncommon or surprising to see.. bc thats how it has been since forever..

This. Literally any game you play people don't want to be healer. I think the only game I've ever enjoyed playing a healer on was Overwatch but that's because they actually gave the healers fun mechanics beyond just sitting back and healing. But even then, there was a healer shortage there despite there being healers that played like dps. People like to be flashy and competitive in games, which is something you don't really get on a healer.

But with that said I do think there is a problem with healing in FF14 atm. Just because people don't want to be healers doesn't mean it should be bad for people that do want to. Damage isn't consistent enough for healers to have anything to do and I don't think healers would be complaining about the lack of dps buttons if they actually had reason to be going all out on their healing. It's bad that Barb EX was probably the best fight this expac for healers that want something to do and it's an extreme trial.

[Renathras]

Look at any of the Lucky Bancho surveys that come out
...
Healers are by far the lowest represented roll, virtually being non existent in lvl 1-69 content, and barely there after that.

That's not how you prove there's a Healer shortage. First, the Level 90 (which is what counts; 1-59 tells you very little since there's only 1 Healer Job even AT levels 1-30), and notice that from 70-90, the three left circles and once you have all Healing Jobs, the nuumber is stable across them?

What you'd need to do to prove there is a shortage is two things:

1) Show that ques/PFs are unable to make - AT LARGE SCALES, not a few anecdotes - due to lack of Healers,

2) Compare these numbers against the prior numbers from Lucky Bancho's surveys, at least 3 but ideally more, to see if there is a trend developing or how these numbers compare. For example, suppose you compared this to the ShB and SB numbers and there were more Healers at 90 now than were at 80 in ShB or at 70 in SB. Would that prove there's a shortage NOW? No, it would show that there's a surplus compared to historic trends.

So you need to do that if you're going to try using those numbers as proof. And I'm not saying this to disparage you - I'd like to see you do that since I'm genuinely curious if we have more or less Healers at 90 now than we had at 80 in ShB or 70 in SB. Can you do that? Would be neat to actually see the perecentages. Also, could you get these as percentages not, "what's the raw number of X which is (I assume?) overrepresented vs the standard 1/1/2 party distribution"?

That is, the circle in the bottom left, for example. Looks like 25% Tanks, 55-60% DPS, 20% Healers? We need to know that to compare against the historic values and see if it's up or down vs the historic trend.

Conversely, can you give me a link to the data and the past iterations? I might do this myself since I'm interested now...

.

EDIT: (No one's posted, so no reason to double post)

Clearly you haven't played enough MMORPGs then, a prime example is Aion, where majority of characters were actually healers and support characters.

Yes, but notice the "and support". You'd have to provide statistics, but there's an interesting thing. Looking at the Pantheon (MMO) poll results of "What role do you want to play?", their playerbase almost always splits around 15-20% Tanks, 15-20% Healers, 30-35% DPS, 30-35% Control/Support since they're going for a four-role Quaternity instead of a three-role Trinity. That is as many potential players of that game want to play the fourth role as want to play DPS. That's a pretty eye opening statistic.

Why is this important?

There is a huge class of underserved players in games who want to play a Support. No matter the MMO, historically, those that offer a Support role often see something like 20-30% of their players choose it. Support is distinct from Healing, as many people who want to Support don't care much about health bars or "playing wack-a-mole" with party health. They don't exactly want to be a DPS, but they don't really want to be a Healer, either. In games that offer them a dedicated role, they jump on it. In games that do not, they play what feels similar to it.

In FFXIV, these players have several options. In ARR, they mainly played SCHs and BRDs. In HW, before SB, they largely played Healers, especially AST, and occasionally still BRDs. But when SB released, the game was introduced to RDM, which became immensely popular as a Support/DPS hybrid in a game that often didn't allow blurring of the roles. At the same time, PLD became a more Support focused Tank with the powerful Clemency spell and a more party support feel. SB is also, historically, when the Healer role reached its minimum percent of the total population from what I was able to get using the Wayback machine (did this in the Healer forum a few months back). And in ShB, this was reinforced with DNC. While BRD had a lot of its party utility stripped (initially almost all of it, to tremendous outcry until there was a reversal), DNC was made into almost a straight Support/buffer class. And in EW, SMN's complete kit rework made it something of a Support/DPS hybrid as well. Notably, DNC and SMN's support is part of their standard rotation in large part.

Point is: You cannot assume "Support" transfers 1-to-1 to "Healer" in different games. I've never played Aion but just loaded up their Class page. As far as I can tell, there are 6 main archetypes (Warrior, Scout, Mage, Priest, Technist, Muse) that seem to roughly correlate to "Tank", "Melee", "Caster DPS", X (will get back to this), "Ranged DPS", Y (will get back to this)

X consists of exactly ONE Healer class, Cleric, and one buffer Support class, Chanter (Enchanter?) - "inspire the morale of allies" "strengthen allies". While this could be something like an AST, a Healer with buffs, the description seems more of a buffer. The description bullet points include "Is able to use some recovery and healing abilities." Conversely, Y consists of Songweaver ("lifting their allies' hearts and spelling their enemies' doom with the power of song") which sounds more like BRD than like a Healer, or perhaps a BRD mixed with a RDM; "can reduce opponents stats and control their movement" sounds like a Control/Support, not a Healer. The closest thing to healer there is "Viable secondary healer when accompanied by a Cleric", and Vandal, which is a ranged physical damage dealer and debuffer with a "Variety of control effects".

Strictly speaking, only Cleric there sounds like "Healer", with the other three being a buffer with "some" heals, a debuffer/control (control effects are also used too describe the Songweaver) with magic song damage and crowd control effects, with some limited "secondary" healing, and a full Control class that seems to not even mention Healing.

If a Vandal were to play FFXIV, for example, would that player be playing a Healer? Probably not. They'd probably be playing a DPSer.

.

You cannot compare a 4 role game to a 3 role game, since the fourth role does not 1-to-1 transfer to one of the three roles. The reality is that it probably splits up. I would wager most people inclined to play a Chanter or Songweaver in Aion play RDM or DNC in FFXIV. And I have no idea why I think this, but I feel like Vandal players would more likely play DRK. Knowing nothing about its history or playstyle, it just strikes me as DRK-like somehow...

Because the system in Aion was nothing like we have here, synced runs, roulettes and all of that. In Aion, if you were 9 levels above a mob, you would not get drops from monsters, forcing you to either make alts or just buy stuff from the market.

Endgame in Aion was PvP mostly, not PvE, so of course the majority of players were at max level doing that type of content, not low level dungeons.

So...why did you try to compare it at all, then? It doesn't seem remotely comparable...

No they weren’t. I got begged to run things on my Cleric all the time and lack of healers for groups was a thing.

So...I take it my general assessment was correct, then?

Then maybe you didn't play it enough to understand, lack of healers was always a thing, and yet the majority of characters were clerics and chanters. This is coming from me, who mained cleric for years.

From what I can tell, Chanters aren't Healers, they're more akin to RDMs.

Before Shb's lobotomization (and Ew's not addressing any issue with the role) they were easier to find than tanks so now them being so low in % of population should show there is something wrong.

Yes, but perhaps not what you think.

What else happened?

In science, what you're doing is known as "violation of ceteris paribus". "ceteris paribus" means "all other things held constant" (or close to). If you want to compare two things directly, you try to do this. The problem is, if other things WEREN'T held constant, you have to factor in those effects. From SB to ShB, Tanks were made far easier to play, especially WAR. Further, a new and very cool, very hyped Tank Job was added, and one that has a strong appeal to Melee DPS players. This saw an explosion in Tank players, with many former DPS players shifting their main to Tank.

"Tankxiety" was vastly reduced across the board, and GNB played more like a Melee DPS than a Tank, appealing to players who enjoyed playing DPSers.

While you an argue that Healer numbers declined, you can't ignore that Tank numbers exploded. The reason it's easier to find Tanks today is that Tanking became much more popular once it got more braindead and even had a Melee-DPS-like Tank Job added to the game to appeal to non-traditionally Tank players.

In theory, SGE was going to be the same for Healers (a Healer Job that appeals to Caster DPS players), but of course, it isn't since it doesn't focus on a Caster DPS rotation.

Moreover, SCH was "lobotomized". WHM was more or less the same as it was before, and ShB WHM was FAR better than SB WHM (the only iteration of WHM in FFXIV's history that was better than ShB's was maybe ARR's), which saw an explosion of WHM players at the same time.

Notice how in nearly a decade, he hasn't come out asking players to play tanks.

Whut? o.O

The entire reason for making GNB play like a Melee AND removing Threat/Damage stances from Tanks was because there was a massive Tank shortage in SB. I could be wrong, but I think Yoshi P said something akin to "Give Tanks a try" back around 5.0's launch. So yes, he has done so within the last decade...

[GaiusDrakon]

SOURCE CITATION AND FIVE DIFFERENT ACADEMIC JOURNAL ARTICLES REQUIRED.

*Not required if it supports Ren's argument about the majority of the playerbase liking X.

[Rehayem]

I was about to reply, but the moment guy compared FFXIV's RDM to Aion's Chanter, I just gave up, man didn't even play Aion and yet is trying to make comparisons lol

[IDontPetLalas]

"Point is: You cannot assume "Support" transfers 1-to-1 to "Healer" in different games. I've never played Aion but just loaded up their Class page. As far as I can tell, there are 6 main archetypes (Warrior, Scout, Mage, Priest, Technist, Muse) that seem to roughly correlate to "Tank", "Melee", "Caster DPS", X (will get back to this), "Ranged DPS", Y (will get back to this)

X consists of exactly ONE Healer class, Cleric, and one buffer Support class, Chanter (Enchanter?) - "inspire the morale of allies" "strengthen allies". While this could be something like an AST, a Healer with buffs, the description seems more of a buffer. The description bullet points include "Is able to use some recovery and healing abilities." Conversely, Y consists of Songweaver ("lifting their allies' hearts and spelling their enemies' doom with the power of song") which sounds more like BRD than like a Healer, or perhaps a BRD mixed with a RDM; "can reduce opponents stats and control their movement" sounds like a Control/Support, not a Healer. The closest thing to healer there is "Viable secondary healer when accompanied by a Cleric", and Vandal, which is a ranged physical damage dealer and debuffer with a "Variety of control effects".

Strictly speaking, only Cleric there sounds like "Healer", with the other three being a buffer with "some" heals, a debuffer/control (control effects are also used too describe the Songweaver) with magic song damage and crowd control effects, with some limited "secondary" healing, and a full Control class that seems to not even mention Healing."

You would be incorrect. During the time I played Aion, from closed beta up until around the end of 2021 (so if memory serves that would be 12 years) , on a number of classes including both cleric and chanter, as classes were adjusted, and instances, aside some exceptionally difficult PVE content or PVP matches, a chanter could solo heal , and that left the group free to do whatever they wanted - sometimes to bring a DPS cleric - since a decently geared DPS spec cleric was once of the highest DPS in the game- OR bring another DPS.

Also, in some conditions, a songweaver could also solo heal a group , given the correct spec as well but that spec was quite rare (i.e. usually SW went DPS spec) . However it was quite possible.

[IDontPetLalas]

I was about to reply, but the moment guy compared FFXIV's RDM to Aion's Chanter, I just gave up, man didn't even play Aion and yet is trying to make comparisons lol

It's par for the course.

[Hyperia]

Why is there a healer shortage? Really? It’s because this game forces healers to do heavy DPS an a tiny amount of healing. Heck, healers get in trouble if they use their GCD heals as it’s a DPS loss.

In WOW, if I did DPS in a dungeon, there was a very good chance people will die, here I can disconnect, come back after a few minutes and everything is ok.

I play a healer because I want to support and help others, not DPS. I do DPS though so don’t come back on me on that. I do it but I don’t like it.

I wish that healers had more buffs and other mitigations to fill any healing down time. I’d also like to see them have some bonus system where when a healer uses a GCD, it helps charge a gauge that can be used for a DPS buff or other mitigation.

Give me something to do besides DPS and you may see more healers… also, have more healers start at level 1 besides WHM.

[Renathras]

I was about to reply, but the moment guy compared FFXIV's RDM to Aion's Chanter, I just gave up, man didn't even play Aion and yet is trying to make comparisons lol

Oh, you have chosen...poorly.

You made a comparison you then said yourself was invalid. I said closest to as far as I can tell. YES, I didn't play Aion because it's a dead game and I liked other games better. That's why I'm not the one comparing Aion to FFXIV.

What this post is really saying:

"I was going to reply, but realized I had no counter to the arguments made, so I'm not going to but am going to present my non-argument as if I won."

Futurama - Will of the warrior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMdYZG_gdwI
"No girl has the will of the warrior. You have the will of the housewife. Or, at best, the school mom."
"That's it! I'll take you on right now!"
"Very well. But, you see, I have the will of the warrior. Therefore the battle is already over. The winner? Me! Rematch? YOU LOSE AGAIN! HAD ENOUGH?! I THOUGHT SO!"

When you frame your argument as "I don't have to have an argument", then that's this stupidity.

You would be incorrect. During the time I played Aion, from closed beta up until around the end of 2021 (so if memory serves that would be 12 years) , on a number of classes including both cleric and chanter, as classes were adjusted, and instances, aside some exceptionally difficult PVE content or PVP matches, a chanter could solo heal , and that left the group free to do whatever they wanted - sometimes to bring a DPS cleric - since a decently geared DPS spec cleric was once of the highest DPS in the game- OR bring another DPS.

Yay! You actually contested...a small part of...the point: That the Chanter could be considered a Healer, which is 100% in line with my statement that it sounds like the kind of FFXIV AST in HW.

Congratulations for agreeing with me even while you were mocking me.

The phrase you're looking for would be "You would be correct, more or less", not "You would be incorrect".

Also, in some conditions, a songweaver could also solo heal a group , given the correct spec as well but that spec was quite rare (i.e. usually SW went DPS spec) . However it was quite possible.

So...KINDA like...a...RDM...

Thanks for telling me I'm right again without saying I'm right again.

It's funny how you insist I'm talking out my butt...but then say the things I said are correct, just while trying not to word it that way. XD

It's par for the course.

So are people like that not having arguments.

Point is, someone made a stupid comparison, then when called on it, didn't even bother trying to defend it.

.

Can you provide any evidence that people who play SUPPORT roles in 4-role games all play HEALERS in 3-role Trinity games?

SOURCE CITATION AND FIVE DIFFERENT ACADEMIC JOURNAL ARTICLES REQUIRED.

*Not required if it supports Ren's argument about the majority of the playerbase liking X.

/popcorn

I straight up said what information is needed. Asking for a trend instead of a single data point isn't "FIVE DIFFERENT ACADEMIC JOURNALS". Moreover, when I am making arguments, I do cite data such as player numbers AND historic trends. So I'm asking him to do nothing that I don't do myself when I provide data to support positions.

"You lose again!"

[ZephyrMenodora]

I would agree with Zephr that early on no one had a clue what chanters were good for, and until they got some well deserved class adjustments they a horrid time in PVP. *Snip for lenght*.

I agree the game is dead and for good reason. I pre-ordered Aion in 2009 and they later removed pre-order bonuses from all accounts. I've never seen a game just delete people's pre-order account bonuses in my entire life, as though they didn't pay for them. They also were heavily pay to win - I had top PvP and PvE gear because what I lacked in time I made up for in cold, hard cash. Event after event to get people dumping MONEY into the game with in-game advantages in PvP. If you're gear was strong enough, there was little a lesser-geared person could do to you in PVP. They later changed all gear so that it was useless, and you had to start all over. In the past, you could use the same set of gear for years and while not optimal, it still worked. Don't get me started on removing attack and run speed from gloves and boots and moving it mostly to the horrendous candy system that you had to use limited currency on (or..RL cash) to actually look like your human character rather than a stuffed animal. Aion had so many unforgivable practices to me, I'm glad it's about dead. They deserve it.

That doesn't mean Clerics and Chanters were a "majority" as Rehayem claimed. They never were. As a frequent player I actually regularly tracked the numbers on ALL classes, as I wanted to see who was top level. Certain expansions levelling was really slow so you got a sense of how many were levelling quickly and who they were. While Clerics were common classes, and Chanters were improved from "no one wants to play this" to middle of the road, the two simply never had more players than all the DPS classes combined. They just didn't. Rehayem wants us to believe that in most other MMOs, Healers are more popular than DPS. That's laughable and makes me wonder what MMOs he played that this is the case. It wasn't even the case in Aion, which had more healers than most games.

That's not to say that healing here is perfect. I was MT healer in the #1 world-prog raid guild in EQ2. My healing at times single-handedly saved raids, sometimes being the only person alive out of 24 people due to failed mechanics and recovering for a win. My skill expression mattered. I don't feel like it matters here for 95% of my time healing, and for most content a healer is very replacable with a lot of other players with little to no notice.