Did Zenos ruin Endwalker

[Gemina]

He is your foil. Don't get it twisted, Zenos 100% does not resonate or act as a good mirror for every single player or player-character. And I really wish the Zenos simps would get that through their heads already.

I think you meant to emphasize 'foil', but yeah that's what he is. Like Agent Smith to Neo. Sabertooth to Wolverine. Zod to Superman. Sasuke to Naruto. By 'mirror' they are equal or near equal in power, determination, and resolve. What Zenos haters need to realize is that's what he is meant to be.

The amount of things they could have done with this character but chose not to because they didn't care. It's like no one on the team touched a single Final Fantasy until they got hired to create this game and the ones they have were forgotten.

Like what? What exactly are the plethora of things they could have done with him?

[EgilTheStressedMage]

I think you meant to emphasize 'foil', but yeah that's what he is. Like Agent Smith to Neo. Sabertooth to Wolverine. Zod to Superman. Sasuke to Naruto. By 'mirror' they are equal or near equal in power, determination, and resolve. What Zenos haters need to realize is that's what he is meant to be.


Like what? What exactly are the plethora of things they could have done with him?

Have him hunt down and kill everyone precious to the WoL since the body possessing thing adds the possessed's memories as shown by Lahabrea in ARR. Take Zodiark's power for himself after Fandaniel is killed. Hell, change history so that he unwillingly becomes Zodiark's core after deciding to wipe out mankind to have his fight with the WoL on a mountain of corpses. Haunt the WoL with their own crimes by having the thoughts of their enemies screamed by their victims. Not be cast aside for the majority of EW like Emet-Selch absolutely would have been if ShB came out today. Not be reduced to a damn floor. Not have a solo instance that unlike Varis doesn't even get an Extreme version that could have acted as a gateway to an exploratory zone. Do something with the fact that he's the grandson of a damn Ancient. Add the damn side story to the game like everything else they should have as A) I ain't reading all that otherwise as it doesn't matter and B) it would have salvaged him at least.

[Gemina]

Have him hunt down and kill everyone precious to the WoL since the body possessing thing adds the possessed's memories as shown by Lahabrea in ARR.

He was on his way to do that in Garlemald. The WoL stopped him despite occupying another body and having the odds heavily turned against them.

Take Zodiark's power for himself after Fandaniel is killed. Hell, change history so that he unwillingly becomes Zodiark's core after deciding to wipe out mankind to have his fight with the WoL on a mountain of corpses.

He planned on doing this as well prior to Fandaniel taking Zodiark for himself. Zenos planned on taking everything away from the WoL because he wanted their unbridled rage turned on him as they fought on a pile of ashes. Remember? If this actually came to fruition, there wouldn't much of a game left to play.

Not have a solo instance that unlike Varis doesn't even get an Extreme version that could have acted as a gateway to an exploratory zone.

This fight was always going to end in a solo instance, and because it is MSQ the difficulty wasn't going to be road blocker. You don't have to like it, but Zenos being an 8-man encounter doesn't fit the narrative that was set for his character. That was the Shinryu encounter back in SB.

Do something with the fact that he's the grandson of a damn Ancient. Add the damn side story to the game like everything else they should have as A) I ain't reading all that otherwise as it doesn't matter and B) it would have salvaged him at least.

Again. Like what? It is perfectly fine that how well Zenos was done as a character is subjective. No one is going to get anywhere trying to convince those who hate him to like him, and those who like him to hate him. And they actually did do something, now that I think about it. His grandfather built Garlemald and the imperial army. The grandson reduced it to ash. Both happen off screen.

[Simple_Barghest]

I think you meant to emphasize 'foil', but yeah that's what he is. Like Agent Smith to Neo. Sabertooth to Wolverine. Zod to Superman. Sasuke to Naruto. By 'mirror' they are equal or near equal in power, determination, and resolve. What Zenos haters need to realize is that's what he is meant to be.

Nah I emphasized the right word.
Not my fault you don't like what I'm saying.

Edit: More to the point, you seem to be (funnily enough) missing the point of using those characters as examples of how Zenos is a 'good foil.'
Smith, Sabertooth, Zod, and Sasuke are all four their own entity.
Neo, Wolverine, Superman, and Naruto are all four their own entity.
When each character is foiled against their counterpart, taking into account each character's own life experiences, beliefs, and motivations.

The Warrior of Light is an empty puppet whose motivations are entirely up to the individual player that controls their particular iteration of the WoL, regardless of what the writers try and rewrite in after the fact.
When you say Zenos is a foil, you are saying this in regards to your Warrior of Light. Your interpretation of the character, and your motivations inserted into them. Which does not apply to all WoLs.

[Gemina]

Nah I emphasized the right word.
Not my fault you don't like what I'm saying.

Edit: More to the point, you seem to be (funnily enough) missing the point of using those characters as examples of how Zenos is a 'good foil.'
Smith, Sabertooth, Zod, and Sasuke are all four their own entity.
Neo, Wolverine, Superman, and Naruto are all four their own entity.
When each character is foiled against their counterpart, taking into account each character's own life experiences, beliefs, and motivations.

The Warrior of Light is an empty puppet whose motivations are entirely up to the individual player that controls their particular iteration of the WoL, regardless of what the writers try and rewrite in after the fact.
When you say Zenos is a foil, you are saying this in regards to your Warrior of Light. Your interpretation of the character, and your motivations inserted into them. Which does not apply to all WoLs.

The motivations of the WoL doesn't change the deeds he or she has accomplished throughout the MSQ, or the feelings that the supporting characters have towards them. These are not invalidated simply because you say so. That isn't how it works. Besides, YOU are the one that said Zenos was a foil. I simply just agreed with you.

[DayHealer]

I think you meant to emphasize 'foil', but yeah that's what he is. Like Agent Smith to Neo. Sabertooth to Wolverine. Zod to Superman. Sasuke to Naruto. By 'mirror' they are equal or near equal in power, determination, and resolve. What Zenos haters need to realize is that's what he is meant to be.

I think you are missing a very simple point on why these comparisons dont work: agent smith / sabertooth / zod / sasuke / etc. actually actively try to kill their counteparts.

Then we have Zenos. Stormblood Zenos was actually well received because he was actually menacing and the first villain to put the WoL in his/her place. Then Shadowbringers comes and Zenos just keeps... hanging around doing nothing? and Endwalker comes and he keeps hanging doing nothing again? Also even when he had the easy chance to kill the WoL he dont do it cos "I want muh battle with you bro".

I swear at any time I just wanted to give him his damm battle so he stop being a pain in the arse.

[Gemina]

I think you are missing a very simple point on why these comparisons dont work: agent smith / sabertooth / zod / sasuke / etc. actually actively try to kill their counteparts.

Then we have Zenos. Stormblood Zenos was actually well received because he was actually menacing and the first villain to put the WoL in his/her place. Then Shadowbringers comes and Zenos just keeps... hanging around doing nothing? and Endwalker comes and he keeps hanging doing nothing again? Also even when he had the easy chance to kill the WoL he dont do it cos "I want muh battle with you bro".

I swear at any time I just wanted to give him his damm battle so he stop being a pain in the arse.

Villains having golden opportunities to kill the protagonist is not uncommon. In fact we see this all the time in comics, anime, movies, books, etc. While Zenos has every intention of killing the WoL, it is a grand battle that he seeks. So if the WoL isn't at their peak, and not coming at Zenos with their all to bare, then he cannot have the battle he wants. As far what he is doing while the WoL is busy with their endeavors? Who knows. We know that he tells us that he continues to hone his blade until the time for their rematch comes. That is all we know, and because of his sole motivation, that is all we need to know.

A villain like Emet is different because we know that what he wants is the rejoining, to bring the world that was stripped of him back. "Perfection", as he puts it and the resurrection of his fallen God. His target is not the WoL specifically, but the WoL is standing in his way. These kind of motivations do not belong to Zenos. It was more in his character to foil the plans of his father because he wasn't going to allow something like the Black Rose take his prey from him, and by doing so he essentially prevented the 8th calamity from ever taken place. Then in his efforts to get his match with the WoL, he also has a major hand in stopping Meteion and the Final Days. Zenos shifts entirely away from the antagonist role, but still remains a villain. Like I told the last poster, you don't have to like it and I'm not going to try and make someone like Zenos who doesn't. I'm just explaining my PoV on things. That is all.

[Renathras]

Villains having golden opportunities to kill the protagonist is not uncommon. In fact we see this all the time in comics, anime, movies, books, etc. While Zenos has every intention of killing the WoL, it is a grand battle that he seeks. So if the WoL isn't at their peak, and not coming at Zenos with their all to bare, then he cannot have the battle he wants.

It's basically like the Joker in Batman. Crazy different quality of writing across all the various Batman comic runs and cartoon episodes, but here and there they really do him right and focus on his character and his relationship with Batman. How, to the Joker, Bruce Wayne is the mask. How the Joker KNOWS Batman is Bruce Wayne but won't ever tell anyone, because that's not the game to him. The game to him is matching wits with "The Bat", trying to get Batman to break character, even trying to get Batman to break his own rule and kill the Joker. One disturbing comic has him take Batman and the Bat family where he's got all their faces wrapped in bandages and their faces cut off their skulls (the skin) and sitting in a pot on the table in front of Bruce, causing him to think that he literally cut of their faces (something that happened to the Joker in this timeline/comic run. But then (spoiler alert) it's revealed that those were just masks he threw into the boiling pot and all the Bat family (and their faces) were okay, because the Joker's goal wasn't to actually harm them, it was to win his personal game with Bruce. Joker has even saved Batman from death (more than once) because he wants to be the one that defeats Batman. And he doesn't want to just kill him - as he's had ample opportunity - he wants to BEAT him.

It's one of the things that makes the Joker, when written well, an interesting and multifaceted villain across the Batman multiverse, since his motivation isn't just "get lots of money" or "get lots of power" or "kill Batman". And even with the vastly different quality the character has been written at over the better part of a century at this point, it's been pretty consistent across all his incarnations, including when he broke Superman instead in Injustice.

Zenos is like that.

His motivation isn't "kill the WoL" or "make the WoL suffer". His motivation is "good fite" since he feels completely meaningless otherwise in the world and his life. All his actions after his resurrection (and arguably before it) are consistently in service to this objective. And, interestingly, he DOES have a tiny bit of character growth - when Alisaie says he won't listen but the only way to actually get what he wants is to actually help people for a change, it actually gets through to him. Even if selfish, he's not stupid, and when he realizes she's right, he does that very thing. He even DOES show more intelligence and rationality than most when he points out himself that his evil and cruelty would be no less evil and cruel if he "had a good reason" for it, piercing what is often an irrational delusion people have that evil actions might somehow be less evil (or less harmful) if they have have a good reason behind them. Ironically, Zenos does a quicker and more moral takedown of faux morality than basically anyone, and does so in such a dismissive, offhanded way to point out JUST HOW faux it is.

Like the Joker, he's a character that sees the thin veneer of his reality more truly than most. But unlike the WoL and Scions, whose answer to this is hope, his own answer is nihilism; distinct from Meteon's despair, but occupying a similar domain of "not evil for the sake of it". In a way, it makes him a better villain than most, since his objective isn't just to be a bad guy for the hell of it.

.

Note: I'm not saying he was the best and most perfect villain of all time.

But I am saying he's better than a lot of those we've had in MMOs and fiction. His SB era incarnation was pretty crap, but EW made him into an actual character AND did so in a way that made his prior showings still in character, leading to a consistency. And his end was a good and fitting resolution for him.

He was a fine character for what he was, and I hope we never see him again as his end was what it should be.

EDIT:

No. And I, in fact, agree with this post from Reddit:

Not completely, but I do mostly agree as well.